Spinning Side Kick works in close

[FearlessFreep]

A few months ago or so, in another thread I cannot find, there was discussion of using knees when in close. I remember TigerWoman made a remark about just using a spinning side kick instead. I remember the responses were not favorable, that there wouldn't be room to throw the kick, etc..

Well, I tried it out, and it does work. Twice in class the last few days I've had to deal with an opponent who had gotten in very close. In one case, my daughter was really being aggressive and she came in with a lot of body punches mixed in with some kicks. In other case, my son and I were doing an exercise where one of use was only attacking and the other only defending (we took turns). He got in really close, trying to get within my kicking range, and then used hand/arm blocks, pretty effectively, to block my punches.

In both cases I was able to spin in place, get my knee up and my foot up to my hip, and shove out, and it worked very well at pushing my oponent back pretty hard.

I thought about the mechanics and it seemed to make sense. There were other thngs I could've done, but that's just what occurred to me in the moment. My opponents were so close that I didn't have clearance to get my leg up in the front. By spinning around into the kick, though, I could clear my leg to come up when I had turned my axis away from the opponent. Since a side/back kick brings the foot to the hip and then goes out, you don't need a lot of room to throw it, as opposed to a roundhouse kick for example, which needs a bit of space. It came out as more of a 'push' than a 'strike', but it did the job of getting my opponent away from me, rather strongly.

Anyway, just something that came up and thought it was interesting and worth mentioning. It'll be interesting to try in next time I have a chance against a bigger, heavier opponent.

 

[TigerWoman]

Thanks for testing it out. I got dinged some because I prefer that to knee strikes as my knees are fragile. But I said jump back kick which I don't think you probably have learned yet. It is faster, I can gain space and it pushes opponents way back. But the spin sidekick is effective for anyone coming in close to stop them and better if you are fast and snap it hard. Also, to prevent anyone coming in, especially if you have longer legs, just lift up and sidekick, the front leg, when they come in range. Then they think about entering it again. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

Thanks for testing it out.

Well, not intentionally, but I did think of you after I had done it

I got dinged some because I prefer that to knee strikes as my knees are fragile.

I remember watching some of a few recent UFC fights and what occured tome at the time was that the knee-strikes didn't seem too effective. They didn't come up with much force, it seemed. The knee was a heay weapon, but the fighters couldn't seem to usually actually get it up into the ribs with much speed so it didn't seem that powerful.

But I said jump back kick which I don't think you probably have learned yet

Well sorta. I've goofed around with it a bit but I'm not skilled enough to say I can really do it, especially in a pressure situation.

But the spin sidekick is effective for anyone coming in close to stop them and better if you are fast and snap it hard. Also, to prevent anyone coming in, especially if you have longer legs, just lift up and sidekick, the front leg, when they come in range.

Now, both os those I've done. The spin-side kick I remember well being done against me. I was sparring my instructor and tried to do a rear-leg roundhouse and he spun fast and sidekicked me in the chest and knocked me down. I asked if he hd gotten lucky or he had really known what I was doing and he said I was telegraphing really bad. Good learning experience. Anyway, I've used both spinning and front-leg sidekicks defensively on occasion

 

[Touch Of Death]

A few months ago or so, in another thread I cannot find, there was discussion of using knees when in close. I remember TigerWoman made a remark about just using a spinning side kick instead. I remember the responses were not favorable, that there wouldn't be room to throw the kick, etc..

Well, I tried it out, and it does work. Twice in class the last few days I've had to deal with an opponent who had gotten in very close. In one case, my daughter was really being aggressive and she came in with a lot of body punches mixed in with some kicks. In other case, my son and I were doing an exercise where one of use was only attacking and the other only defending (we took turns). He got in really close, trying to get within my kicking range, and then used hand/arm blocks, pretty effectively, to block my punches.

In both cases I was able to spin in place, get my knee up and my foot up to my hip, and shove out, and it worked very well at pushing my oponent back pretty hard.

I thought about the mechanics and it seemed to make sense. There were other thngs I could've done, but that's just what occurred to me in the moment. My opponents were so close that I didn't have clearance to get my leg up in the front. By spinning around into the kick, though, I could clear my leg to come up when I had turned my axis away from the opponent. Since a side/back kick brings the foot to the hip and then goes out, you don't need a lot of room to throw it, as opposed to a roundhouse kick for example, which needs a bit of space. It came out as more of a 'push' than a 'strike', but it did the job of getting my opponent away from me, rather strongly.

Anyway, just something that came up and thought it was interesting and worth mentioning. It'll be interesting to try in next time I have a chance against a bigger, heavier opponent.

That aint the kind of close we are talking about.

 

[Ceicei]

That aint the kind of close we are talking about.

With Kenpo, as TOD mentioned, when we meant close quarters, we are talking REALLY close. In these circumstances, knee strikes do well. Understanding body mechanics within Kenpo do allow for knee strikes to be quite powerful.

- Ceicei

 

[BrandiJo]

we practice spinning side kicks in close too, they do work really well if your quick enuff not to let your opponet close in behind your leg

 

[Gemini]

Thanks for testing it out. I got dinged some because I prefer that to knee strikes as my knees are fragile. But I said jump back kick which I don't think you probably have learned yet. It is faster, I can gain space and it pushes opponents way back. But the spin sidekick is effective for anyone coming in close to stop them and better if you are fast and snap it hard. Also, to prevent anyone coming in, especially if you have longer legs, just lift up and sidekick, the front leg, when they come in range. Then they think about entering it again. TW

It's a shame I wasn't here, then. I'm a big fan of the jumping back kick to get/keep someone off of me. Not sure what you mean by spinning side kick, though. Sounds almost like a regular back kick to me, which is common against a charging opponent. Well, the newer ones anyway.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm talking about the kind of close where they got handfulls of your hair and are attempting to elbow smash your face into jelly. You aren't going to do a spinning anything. Imagine he got in tight, is mauling you, and you are about to go unconcious or pull off the knee... your choice
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's a shame I wasn't here, then. I'm a big fan of the jumping back kick to get/keep someone off of me. Not sure what you mean by spinning side kick, though. Sounds almost like a regular back kick to me, which is common against a charging opponent. Well, the newer ones anyway.

If your toes arent point down upon connection with the target, you just did a spinning side kick.
Sean

 

[Gemini]

I'm talking about the kind of close where they got handfulls of your hair and are attempting to elbow smash your face into jelly. You aren't going to do a spinning anything. Imagine he got in tight, is mauling you, and you are about to go unconcious or pull off the knee... your choice
Sean

No argument there. I was picturing the use in a WTF match, not a "no holds barred" one.

If your toes arent point down upon connection with the target, you just did a spinning side kick.

Thanks. Pretty much what I pictured, but that's not a kick I use, so I wanted to make sure.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No argument there. I was picturing the use in a WTF match, not a "no holds barred" one.

Thanks. Pretty much what I pictured, but that's not a kick I use, so I wanted to make sure.

I used to get in trouble for sluffing the foot any direction but down; so, I hear ya.
Sean

 

[FearlessFreep]

Not sure what you mean by spinning side kick, though. Sounds almost like a regular back kick to me, which is common against a charging opponent. Well, the newer ones anyway.

We've talked about the difference, or lack thereof depending on your point of view, here before.

My understanding is that there is a difference between the two, but a lot of simularity such that the distinction can be obscured in practice sometimes.

From my understanding.

A back kick, or a spinning back kick starts by pivoting on the front foot and bring the rear foot up to the hip. Once your back is to the target, your rear foot thrusts straight out, toes pointed down, strike with the heel.

A spinning side kick starts the same; pivot on front foot and bring rear foot to hip. The difference is that you come around further to face the opponent and the leg comes out and you strike with the foot more horizontal, with the heel and the back of the blade edge of the foot.


The major difference is how much you come around, which means slightly different speed and different muscle direction. A back kick will strike when the shoulders are parrallel to the plane of attack. A side kick will strike with the shoulders perpendicular to the plane of attack. Meaning that a back kick is slightly faster because a sidekick turns around one quarter of a rotation more.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not sure what you mean by spinning side kick, though. Sounds almost like a regular back kick to me, which is common against a charging opponent. Well, the newer ones anyway.

We've talked about the difference, or lack thereof depending on your point of view, here before.

My understanding is that there is a difference between the two, but a lot of simularity such that the distinction can be obscured in practice sometimes.

From my understanding.

A back kick, or a spinning back kick starts by pivoting on the front foot and bring the rear foot up to the hip. Once your back is to the target, your rear foot thrusts straight out, toes pointed down, strike with the heel.

A spinning side kick starts the same; pivot on front foot and bring rear foot to hip. The difference is that you come around further to face the opponent and the leg comes out and you strike with the foot more horizontal, with the heel and the back of the blade edge of the foot.


The major difference is how much you come around, which means slightly different speed and different muscle direction. A back kick will strike when the shoulders are parrallel to the plane of attack. A side kick will strike with the shoulders perpendicular to the plane of attack. Meaning that a back kick is slightly faster because a sidekick turns around one quarter of a rotation more.

Or you could just pivot into a reverse close kneel and throw a normal back kick while looking over your shoulder, hence the spinning / back kick. And yes the angles are different and quicker with the side kick.
Sean

 

[Gemini]

The major difference is how much you come around, which means slightly different speed and different muscle direction. A back kick will strike when the shoulders are parrallel to the plane of attack. A side kick will strike with the shoulders perpendicular to the plane of attack. Meaning that a back kick is slightly faster because a sidekick turns around one quarter of a rotation more.

FearlessFreep,

I'm well aware of the differences between a side and back kick. That's why I was a bit surprised when a spinning side kick was mentioned, since a back kick is IMO the quicker of the two with essentially the same effect. I'm not a huge fan of the side kick, but I know several practioners that use them very effectively.

Though I really just wanted to add that your descriptions of the kicks was excellent and your sig says you're a yellow belt. If that's the case, I wanted to commend you. No yellow belt in my school could have ever written such a detailed explanation.

Regards,

 

[MichiganTKD]

A back side kick can work very well in close (chest-to-chest close). It is my understanding that some fighters, in such close contact, will quickly jump back and around to execute the kick before their opponent gets a shot in. I used to do it frequently myself. You have to be very fast though or you get jammed.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Though I really just wanted to add that your descriptions of the kicks was excellent and your sig says you're a yellow belt. If that's the case, I wanted to commend you. No yellow belt in my school could have ever written such a detailed explanation.

Thank you My instructor is very detailed oriented and I'm very analytical (being both a musician and a software developer)

It's very easy, as a beginner, when learning to do a spinning back kick, to over rotate and fly open and not keep the toes down. (I mean, for a beginner, any technique is easy to do wrong Anyway, as I was learning it, and my kids, my instructor kept harping on us that we were coming around too much, etc...he basically said it was turning into a spinning side kick (which we had not learned at the time) Between that and some other conversations, I sorta pieced together what a spinning side-kick was supposed to be, but I asked him once what the difference were in terms of results, power, speed, and when and why you would use one or the other. So, we had a lengthy discussion over the differences, starting with mechanical execution, through results (speed and power differences) and on to 'when and why'.

 

[TigerWoman]

If your toes arent point down upon connection with the target, you just did a spinning side kick.
Sean

A back kick is just that kicking back with a sidekick which for TKD is always toes down, heel to target.

A spinning sidekick is when you are in fighting stance facing your opponent you spin on the front leg 180° and you sidekick with the back leg which then looks like a back kick, still toes down heel to target.

Also, after reading through the prior posts, if you rotate too far, it is impossible to throw a sidekick with the heel down. It becomes a front kick. You would have to chamber it up (which we don't do-takes too much time) rotate your standing foot to face back as you kick out-basically going back to correct position. Better to just spin to position and kick.

Everyone has different interpretations of these two, but this is it for our organization. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

Everyone has different interpretations of these two, but this is it for our organization

Actually, I was wondering if this would come up. After the last conversation about the two, I happened to spar against a friend who had trained at a different school and I noticed his sidekick was different then mine.

The way I've been trained for a sidekick is that you end up basically in a straight line.. Your shoulders are in line with your hips and your leg is straight out to the side from your hips. Basically if you stop your kick at the point of impact, your shoulders, head, body, hips and legs are in the same position as the strike of a roundhouse, just with a different foot location (and you onviously got there differently). You end up with your shoulders and hips both perpendicular to the plane of the ground. Your head is looking down your body as your shoulder, hip, knee, and ankle are in a straight line. Anyway, the foot is horizontal

However, watching my friend, he did it differentl. He got his shoulders and hips over more so they were no longer perpendicular to the ground and he was looking almost back over his shoulder. His hips were in line with his shoulders, but again, turned past a 90 degree angle to the ground. This meant his foot came out more 'backward' than sideward, at least in comparison Anyway, his final position looked quite a bit more like a back kick than what I normally took as a sidekick. His foot was point downwards

So...out of curiosity, I asked about it. I was told (by my instructor, not my friend) that different schools teach the sidekick different ways. There are pros and cons are different reasons for using either style.

I know when we do a spinning side-kick, it ends up looking the same as how we do a regular side-kick, including the horizontal foot. A step-behind sidekick tends to come out more to the back than normal (because of the hip twist in the step behind move). I've seen my instructor do a 'low high' double kick and if the second kick is a sidekick up into the face, he will turn his hips over more than if he just did a regular sidekick.

 

[TigerWoman]

Jay, I realized this difference in sidekicks just lately. The ITF form, Po Eun, which I am currently learning has a chambered sidekick to the side, quite different. I want to twist my standing foot to face back-toes facing opposite- for its execution because I've been trained that way. I like the way we have learned it, it, I think, gives more power/thrust from the hip.

I can also do multiple sidekicks, hop or hop slide going backward in a line to the opponent. The way you describe your way, your standing foot is facing the same way as your body and you would have to hop to the side, not as natural or better balance-wise. But you didn't say exactly your standing foot position so I am not sure about that.

We also heel up because if you have a horizontal foot, the whole foot lands and the force is dissipated over the length of the foot instead of the ball of the heel. An example of the force: it is hard to break alot of boards with the whole foot (well unless you are bignick and can just overpower them). And actually spinning puts more force into the mix.

Your instructor is doing the higher kicks the way we do them,with a turned to the back hip. That puts the heel in the right place and the hips aligned to kick back. I think it is a better way physiologically but you will have to do it the way your instructor teaches you. Such is the way. TW

 

[bignick]

An example of the force: it is hard to break alot of boards with the whole foot (well unless you are bignick and can just overpower them).

Actually it comes from being on the speech team in high school...I just talk them into giving up...