Spetsnaz shovel video

[RobP]

I understand how people draw parallels between Systema and the chinese internal arts. Certainly there is a softness there that goes beyond anyone I've experienced in taiji.

However - and I speak with almost 20 years of CMA training behind me - the thing I find iinteresting is that IF the System is based on or drew heavily from the Chinese arts, how come the training methods are so different? There is no emphasis on "centre movement" or dan-tien in Systema, yet this is a fundamental of taiji. Likewise, the concepts of rooting and ground path are very different in the two arts.

I buy the fact that at a high level there are only a few principles to be observed, so good people will look similar, but other than that I'm not sure that too much can be read into any apparent similarities.

 

[jellyman]

RobP

I think much may have to do with how you define 'influence' and 'martial art'.

If we take systema to be truly about principles and transcending technique, then if a systema person saw someone do a tech, and put it in the systema framework, stripped it down to principles, and integrated into his/her personal style, would that person be doing systema? Well, as a systema man I'd say yes. But if the tech was from jjj, for example, and I was a jjj man who defines his art in terms of technique, I might say no.

Also, I'm not so sure bodygaurds would train each other so much as just maybe bang it out for fun, or compare notes. After all, why would anyone hire a bodygaurd that needed traiining?

Also, need defines function - multiple oponents require constant movement, and you can see this in ba gua (designed for bodygaurds) as well as in aiki (also used for multiple opponents).

 

[jellyman]

btw, this is not the only origin theory on systema.

 

[Rommel]

"Also, I'm not so sure bodyguads would train each other so much as just maybe bang it out for fun, or compare notes. After all, why would anyone hire a bodygaurd that needed traiining?"

The bodyguards could have been an army since those emperors were rich and had a lot of enemies. Even now in some countries rich drug lords or dictators have their own militia or private army aside from the regular army. They could have cross-trained back then just like we do now. Look how much we love to train. It keeps you in top shape and there is a continual improvement in skill. I don't think that there is really anything new (like cross-training) under the sun.

"However - and I speak with almost 20 years of CMA training behind me - the thing I find iinteresting is that IF the System is based on or drew heavily from the Chinese arts, how come the training methods are so different? There is no emphasis on "centre movement" or dan-tien in Systema, yet this is a fundamental of taiji. Likewise, the concepts of rooting and ground path are very different in the two arts."

The ancient art they studied could have been slightly different from the variatiosn of the CMA we see today. China is so huge and there were so many different martial arts and variations of martial arts.
The reason why I think studying origins is important is that I won't always be here in Toronto to study under Vladimir, but I have a framework to continue to develop and study other arts in the future to add to my own personal style of systema. If I can find the major influences of systema, then I can study or analyze movements and techniques from those arts to extract what I need. Anyone can notice that Mikhail's expression of systema looks different from Vlad's which looks different from his assistant instructors and senior students.


I heard it from Vladimir that Mikhail had studied 100 different arts. He also explained how certain masters would come and demonstrate during their classes things that were just unbelievable like one who could manipulate a persons organs in such a way that he would be dancing around until the organ was returned to the right place. There were times in class that he tried to teach us something he had learned but at the same time he admitted that he was not good at that particular movement. As students it sure looked good to us, but Vlad was very critical of himself.

 

[woda]

I don't doubt this guys skill, but he sounds like he's full of it to me. The places where he says his art were used are the exact same as where systema was used. GRU is russian military intelligence as opposed to the 'civilian' KGB. The bat logo of systema is from these GRU units. Attached to GRU are divisions of spetsnaz. Attached to each division is a special operations brigade-sized unit. This seems like a custom version of some oriental art, but making the same historical and performance claims as systema.

 

[woda]

Also, calling systema a "general combat system?" It's a little more than that.

 

[RobP]

I agree that there are many variations in CMA, but at the root (ha ha!) of all the Chinese internal styles are the concepts of dan tien, root / groundpath and peng, which, as I'm sure we agree are not present in the same way in Systema.

I'm also not sure about Mikhail studying "100 arts". He may have been exposed to different arts in terms of how to work against them in his training, but by all accounts his phsycal teaching as such had pretty much stopped by the age of 16 or so.

Vlad showed us the organ thingy when he was over last time - it was not so much moving the organ (which, let's face it would kill someone) as somehow upsetting or aggravating it. Was interesting to see how he got different effects by targetting different areas with different types of strike.

Cheers

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by woda
Also, calling systema a "general combat system?" It's a little more than that.

How do you mean this?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RobP
Vlad showed us the organ thingy when he was over last time - it was not so much moving the organ (which, let's face it would kill someone) as somehow upsetting or aggravating it. Was interesting to see how he got different effects by targetting different areas with different types of strike.

This definitely sounds very CMA! Is there a medical theory that goes along with this, as Oriental medicine goes with CMA?

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by RobP
Vlad showed us the organ thingy when he was over last time - it was not so much moving the organ (which, let's face it would kill someone) as somehow upsetting or aggravating it. Was interesting to see how he got different effects by targetting different areas with different types of strike.

He's done it to me a few times. It doesn't feel good.

Of course I'd almost rather that then the time he made me dance like the scarecrow from the Wizard Of Oz.

:waah:

 

[Rommel]

There is something that Vladimir said that someone did with someone else's organs that he can't do. I know the organ punching that you are talking about, but this was something really complicated and really highly advanced. The person who did it was a Russian master. There are other Russian arts out there that can do really weird things to the human body that are still secret. Up until recently the almost inhuman things we do in systema were also secret and no one knew about it. Being a systema trainer in Russia Vladimir was exposed to so much high level stuff that he was not able to study in depth. God willing, those other Russian martial arts will be revealed in due time. Perhaps Popov is one of many more that have opened their minds to teaching us westerners. I'm sure there will be a lot more in the future.

 

[Pervaz]

Rommel,

Can you explain what you mean by "almost inhuman things we do in systema "?

It seems a strange phrase

Thanks

 

[Rommel]

I was demonstrating to some of the members of my church only some of the things I had learned in only two years of studying systema.

1. The ability to absorb full strength punches to our bodies.
2. The ability to easily drop any attacker without breaking a sweat with practically no effort.
3. I put a blind fold on and had three people attack me for a demonstration and I was able to control all three of them.
4. The ability to throw a punch that looks effortless yet drop your opponent.
5. The ability to get out of locks, holds, etc effortlessly.
6. The ability to put someone down without touching them, but only by breathing. I was only able to pull this off twice in class, but Vlad does it to me all the time.
7. The ability to break the punchers wrist/hand when their punching you but subtle changes in your body position.

From their perspective it was amazing, almost inhuman in their words. From our perspective it's business as usual. We know how much we don't know and our knowlegdge pales compared to Vlad. I've seen him do so many amazing things like transfer the force of the punch back to the puncher with just hand movements. He has put people to sleep with just hand movements-I was one of them!!!

 

[jellyman]

I agree that there are many variations in CMA, but at the root (ha ha!) of all the Chinese internal styles are the concepts of dan tien, root / groundpath and peng, which, as I'm sure we agree are not present in the same way in Systema.

Oh God, not this again lol

shades of empty flower, eh rob?

I don't doubt that over the millenia cultural exchange between russia/ussr region and se asia occured. There were no natural obstacles to stop this, and even on the biological level, that whole stretch of landmass forms what's called a cline, or a genetic and cultural continuum - similar to the cline from india through thailand, burma, tibet and china.

But that doesn't mean that native fighting systems could not have formed in russia - after all, india has native fighting systems too, as do thailand, burma and tibet - yet they also border china.

There's also mechanical aspects to systema that I don't see in any TMA - like rotating the shoulder vertically to use as a piston. Not to mention certain movements that link to russian dances.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that at one point or another, virtually every ancient culture has developed combatatives of one kind or another - in fact even the relatively new cultures in the New world have done this.

So for me, occam's razor pretty much dictates that what mr learned was handed to him whole - although he definitely added to this.

Now, as for the apparent differences in individual style - lest we forget, systema is supposed to provide you with your own personally tailored art, and is supposed to limitless. Why then would you expect all systema people to fight the same? Remember, the idea of the 'perfect technique' is emphatically NOT part of systema - all that matters is results vs effort.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jellyman
virtually every ancient culture has developed combatatives of one kind or another - in fact even the relatively new cultures in the New world have done this.

Only so many ways to kick and punch I suppose...until we all grow 3rd arms...

 

[Rommel]

Or it could be that as languages are related by families and have ancestral origins (Romance languages/Germanic Languages, etc.), each art could conceivably have been modified in the same way but have come from a mother system/s. Maybe there are more "martial families" or connections than we realize.

 

[Pervaz]

Just going back to the main topic of this guy - After looking at his videos I think a main difference between his art (what it is either a form of systema and/or CMA) its very linear - especially in the knife work. When dealing with the two attackers he is still in the "power of corridoor" when MR teaches to walk around in a circular way - Or have I had one too many hits on the head ??

P

 

[Samurai]

He has put people to sleep with just hand movements

I do not see this as Amazing. I have put a room full of people to sleep with the sound of my voice alone.

I am a MASTER !!!!!!!

OK- Maybe I am just boring. :sadsong:

 

[Rommel]

Come to think of it so have I.

 

[woda]

arnisador, I'd consider a general combat system nothing more than basic self-defence and several offensive techniques designed around the job of the soldier. Systema, however, deals with car jackings, bodyguarding, arrest and control techniques and all aspects of combat from standing to the ground, weapons, but improvised weapons also. Breathing and health techniques are also covered in-depth.