Sean (Lobo) would know as he is a student of Kurth.
I would assume it is a personal modification? I think interesting because of what it emphasises.
Siu Lim Tau Comparison
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Sean (Lobo) would know as he is a student of Kurth.
I would assume it is a personal modification? I think interesting because of what it emphasises.
I would add that most of the WSL VT people that I know do modify the set, mostly adding additional repetition or time on the important bits. Kurth looks like he has gone a bit further along with this process.
I wouldn't agree that it is "highly modified" as geezer said because the thinking appears just the same as the basic set. He seems to be stressing the main points of the set in his modified version, rather than changing in any way.
I wouldn't agree that it is "highly modified" as geezer said because the thinking appears just the same as the basic set. He seems to be stressing the main points of the set in his modified version, rather than changing in any way.
Changing way, like you have any experience with that. Again, What actual experience here?
I agree. That is how it appears to me. This does not seem at all out of line or odd to me, because in Pin Sun the sets are short. So they can be repeated as many times as you want before going on to the next set. And nearly every set has at least one or more variations where you are doing the same thing conceptually as the original, but maybe simply in a different way. So it makes perfect sense to me to practice your SLT this way as a training exercise.
I would agree that I would not consider Sifu Kuth's set "highly modified" if he is simply repeating movements for emphasis in a supplemental version. I do this as well... pick a segment of one of the forms and cycle through it repeatedly to really "burn it in".
On the other hand, if this replaces the standard form completely, I would consider that a significant modification. Sequence does matter to a degree.
On the other hand, if this replaces the standard form completely, I would consider that a significant modification. Sequence does matter to a degree.
That isn't me in the youtube clip
Eric_H
Black Belt
Whoa, this thread came out of nowhere, I guess as one of the resident HFY guys I'll field some of the questions/comments.
The Moy Yat form is being performed by Mark Waldrop, it's more or less how I remember learning it from my first WC teacher, Richard Loewenhagen. Sifu Loewenhagen was promoted to be a Sifu and given chops by Moy Yat directly. Whatever you think of it - the credentials are there.
The TWC form is being performed by Sifu Dale Vits, Dale's Sifu was a recognized instructor (and I think Gold Sash? I can't recall TWC's ranking system) from William Cheung directly. I have heard the TWC form has changed a lot over the years, I can't speak to what generation this one is from.
The level change with Ying Bong (Eagle Bong) in our third section of SNT - this is about riding the energy up, basically the opponent doing a mid to high level change and how you can cover the space. It does not lift the bridge on it's own, it follows it up and displaces the opponent's elbow. As already discussed, lifting with that shape... that's not great for shoulders.
The Moy Yat form is being performed by Mark Waldrop, it's more or less how I remember learning it from my first WC teacher, Richard Loewenhagen. Sifu Loewenhagen was promoted to be a Sifu and given chops by Moy Yat directly. Whatever you think of it - the credentials are there.
The TWC form is being performed by Sifu Dale Vits, Dale's Sifu was a recognized instructor (and I think Gold Sash? I can't recall TWC's ranking system) from William Cheung directly. I have heard the TWC form has changed a lot over the years, I can't speak to what generation this one is from.
The level change with Ying Bong (Eagle Bong) in our third section of SNT - this is about riding the energy up, basically the opponent doing a mid to high level change and how you can cover the space. It does not lift the bridge on it's own, it follows it up and displaces the opponent's elbow. As already discussed, lifting with that shape... that's not great for shoulders.
This makes perfect sense to me. In the VT I practice, bong is only done at one level in SNT, and we are told that bong sau never lifts up your opponent's arm, but in chi-sau and applications, bong will often rise up riding on the opponent's rising punch just as you describe. This is a good example of why it is best not to pass judgement on things like movements in a form until you find out how they are intended or understood in the context of that system.
Whoops, retracted a post from a minute ago. It actually referenced another thread... and a post by the other WSL-PB-VT guy. ...My Bad!
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In the context of that system, how is "rising up riding on the opponent's rising punch" not considered an arm-chasing error?
Sounds like the classic "stick and follow", which is highly problematic by the principles of YMVT as I know them.
Well yeahanything else useless to say?
You said this when I posted it:
I was clarifying that it wasn't me, since you seemed to think it was. Ok?
Well, credentials or not, there are problems with that form. Moy Yat VT and WSL VT both came from YM and no reason for them to have diverged.
I can't really envisage how this would work in practice. Do you have any video?
Is everything other than punching straight at the opponent considered "arm chasing" in your mind??? If someone has contact across your bridge and is doing a rising punch towards your face, why would you not lift up from below to deflect it? How is this any more an example of "chasing hands" than doing a pivot with a Jung Bong to deflect?
Can't speak to that. I haven't seen or felt how that bong is actually used. The verbal description did not sound like arm chasing to me, but words can be misleading. Perhaps I am willing to give other's the benefit of the doubt, whereas you often doubt the benefit of what they do.
In the VT I train, the bong would rise if it is pushed up by the opponent's punch, but the energy and intent is forward. Our objective is to strike on center, not to follow our opponent's arms off center. I hope that clears things up a bit.
Can't speak to that. I haven't seen or felt how that bong is actually used. The verbal description did not sound like arm chasing to me, but words can be misleading. Perhaps I am willing to give other's the benefit of the doubt, whereas you often doubt the benefit of what they do.
In the VT I train, the bong would rise if it is pushed up by the opponent's punch, but the energy and intent is forward. Our objective is to strike on center, not to follow our opponent's arms off center. I hope that clears things up a bit.
I guess this is what I am having trouble imagining: Why would you bong something coming from below or on the same line as your hands?
The punch was coming from above the hands and rising towards the face, not below the hands.
