Sip Soo - Ten Hands

[Muwubu16858]

In the English Volume 1, the following forms that are listed are GM Hwang's attempt to pronounce them in their original context: Basahee Dae, Passi So, Chin Do, Wang Shu, Tjin, Rohaee Cho-Sam Dan, Tsan Tjin, Ssi San, Ssi Boai, SsanSsi Bbai, Seisan, So-Jin, Sai Hoo Ah, Goo Ryung Hoo Ah, Jin Toi/Ship Soo, Ji-on. The actual korean pronounciation for these forms may be different based on the hanja used, but for the one's we use, in the same order as above: Pal Chae Dae, Pal Chae So, Jin Dang, Wan Soo, Ja Yun, No Pae Cho-Sam Dan, Sam Jun, Ship Sam, Ship Pal, Sam Ship Pal(We use both Sam Ship Pal[28] and Sam Ship Yuk[26/Sanseiru] Forms), Ship Sam/Jung Sam, Jang Jin, Chae Pa, Nae Ryu Pa, Sul Soo, Ja Eum(Eu is silent, just an mmm sound).

 

[rafael.ohalloran]

In reply to the comments about the application of ship soo, I was taught that it was defense against a staff.

I picked up a nice book the other day which gives staff defense (and offensive) applications for the form that are pretty good.

Hidden Karate 2. by Gennoske Higaki.

Its called Jitte in the book btw. Also Funakoshi's book Karate Do Kyohan lists a couple of apps but is not as complete as Higakis book. I think the book cost me 35 bucks and gives detailed application for 9 advanced forms (Naihanchi 2,3 Bassai Dai, Jion, Jite, Seishan, Jindo, Koon San Kun, Wanshu). Well worth it.

Hope this helps.
-Rafael

 

[Muwubu16858]

Originally Posted by clfsean

I don't believe the OMAs use a Sho or Dai version of the kata

This is a wrong statement. Itosu Anko Sensei of Okinawa was behind the formulization of Bassai Sho and Kusanku(Kanku/Kong Sang Koon)Sho, as well as many other kata.

 

[punisher73]

Sip Soo is based on Jitte kata of Shotokan. Here is a link to both

Shotokan--Jitte

Tang Soo Do--Sip Soo
http://www.natkd.com/pyong_ahn_forms.htm (scroll down until you see it, they have all of the tsd forms)

Sip soo can mean "10 hands" and also "all hands". The kata is based on a defense against a bo, and also contains grappling techniques. Many times in kata when you are doing a movement very slowly, it is to emphasize that the movement is a joint break etc. In Shotokan, it is usually a blackbelt level kata

 

[clfsean]

This is a wrong statement. Itosu Anko Sensei of Okinawa was behind the formulization of Bassai Sho and Kusanku(Kanku/Kong Sang Koon)Sho, as well as many other kata.

I never said right or wrong. I said I didn't believe. It's been a long time since I've looked at those kata. It's not really my area of practice anymore, but was at one time a long time ago.

 

[punisher73]

I also forgot to mention that the animals associated with some of the TSD forms were added later by the Koreans, it was not something in the original forms from Okinawa.

I am not sure of the animal origin or why they started this. I can only remember that

Pinans=Turtle
Bassai=Snake
Kusanku=Eagle

What are the others?

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Sip soo (Jitte) represents the bear.

 

[Taiji_Mantis]

Please bear with the frustrated tone of this post. It was intended to go elsewhere, but I found this thread when poking around and felt that it may be a good plan to spread some of the wealth.

I have been finding that teachers in certain schools like to tell their students things that are not in all cases true. I am not sure if they do this on purpose or not, but wherever they get their information from, they either dont check it for reliability, or simply dont care. In any case, this incorrect information is passed on to their students and their students students--ultimately creating a big mess--especially when they come across someone who does know something about it from another perspective. The following is a cut and paste--it is not intended to offend. I personally do not believe there is any chance Sip Soo is a Tiger/Crane influenced form.

All the talk about Karate and Tang Soo Do being Chinese in origin may be true, but I do not believe that everything has to have some deeper meaning. Sometimes things are what they are without any super secret or mysterious history. I think too that the more time is spent on tracing these “mysterious” histories, the less credibility is given to the art, and the practitioner. Simply stated:

If everyone is so desperate to make a “Chinese connection” with their Korean or Okinawan art, why not just stop practicing Korean or Okinawan arts and go learn a Chinese Art?

Here are the facts as I see them:

The Sui dynasty preceded the Tang, which is where everyone likes to start with all the “Way of the China Hand” stuff. That was 618-907 CE. Now the most famous of these “Chinese diplomats” or “Buddhist monks” that brought Chuan Fa to the Ryukyu Islands would be Kong Su Kung and Jion. Kong Su Kung or Kosanku didn’t arrive in Okinawa until 1762. This could account for the “Crane” style aspect some speak of as crane was developed during the Ming dynasty, which spanned from 1368 to 1644.

However, the “Ten Hands” form or Sip Soo/Jitte comes from the same family of Okinawan Kata as Jion—named presumably for the Buddhist monk of the same name who came from China in the 15th Century. However, this is where things start to fall apart for me with the whole “Tiger and Crane” theory in the Jitte/Sip Soo animal reference.

Allegedly, Jee Sin who was a Buddhist monk of the Southern Shaolin Temple (if a Southern temple even existed is hotly debated) taught Cai Jiuyi, Liu Sanyan, Li Yiushan, Mo Qingjiao, and Hong Xiguan—The five elders of the southern families. Hong Xiguan is probably the most important of these for the purpose of this post in that he is the Jo shi or founder of Hung Gar.

Hung Gar’s most famous practitioner is without a doubt Huang Feihong, who is probably best known for his refinement of the Tiger Crane form. Feihong died in 1924. Now, if one looks into history as one Grandmaster says—the Japanese Empire was at its height from 1868 to 1945. Who did the Chinese hate above anyone else? The Japanese. Not that the Japanese and the Okinawans were the same ethnic enemy as the Japanese, but The Chinese didn’t teach their system to any outsiders as a rule. Now it isn’t to say that this rule wasn’t broken, because it was, but it does decrease the likelihood of Tiger and Crane being given to the Okinawans during this period of history even more.

Now please do not misunderstand—I am not saying that there were not other sources of Tiger and Crane to allot for the so-called “Tiger” connection, but this being the most likely source of the form makes it pretty unlikely. Oh there is that whole Shaolin Black Tiger thing, but that originated in the late 19th century.

On to the forms themselves—I can see nothing that bears any resemblance to Hong family kungfu in Jitte/Sip Soo. That in and of itself says how bastardized the form must be from its original source. The applications are simply not there the way they would be intended.

So to recap:
1. Doesn’t match physically.
2. Doesn’t match historically.
3. Doesn’t match politically.

My guess this form is in Tang Soo Do what it is everywhere else--Okinawan.