Simply to simplify

[Xue Sheng]

I have been re-reading “Tao of Jeet Kune Do” and I am beginning to wonder something. The first time I read it I was recovering from a back injury that took me out of MA and eventually lead me to Taijiquan which I have been training for going on 17 years now and close to 14 years of that has been Traditional Yang style but in addition to Taiji for the last year or so I have been training police-military Sanda and while reading Bruce Lee’s book I find myself thinking that many of the forms that I have been doing and learned in Taiji or just about any CMA might be superfluous. Sanda is simple and direct and has no forms where many other CMA styles are form heavy and somewhat complex. I have nothing against forms, I think they are a good training tool but I am, of late, beginning to think they get in the way of actual martial arts.

I read

The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify. It is being oneself; it is reality in its “isness.” Thus, isness is the meaning – having freedom in its primary sense, not limited by attachments, confinements, partialization, complexities.

And I began to wonder if I was not wasting my time focusing on forms and that if it was not time to let go and move on.

I am also wondering why some people chose Jeet Kune Do over any other art or why they may have switched to Jeet Kune Do form a previous art.

I should also add I do not train JKD nor is it likely I am going to anytime soon. The school near me is rather expensive and I am very happy with Sanda. I am just wondering, actually as I type this I realize I am not 100% sure what I am wondering to be honest. I have been doing forms for a very long time and now I am not 100% sure if I am not wasting my time and I am not exactly what to do next.

I guess I am just looking for some thoughts on forms or the lack thereof form JKD practitioners to help me get a handle on this.

Thanks
XS

 

[tellner]

Before we took the Silat exit off the JKD highway my wife and I were able to spend a lot of time talking and training with very good teachers in the Inosanto clan. We have a couple certificates with the right names on them, so we aren't complete duffers. Here are some thoughts on the matter...

The funny-looking version of Wing Chun that the late Mr. Lee did with its boxing, fencing, wrestling and so on was his personal stash of techniques and training methods that he used to implement the ideas which he had learned and hammered out over his too-short life. Some people say that JKD is that particular curriculum. And they tend to say that it reached its highest expression whenever they happened to learn it from him.

His longest consistent student, the guy who actually taught the classes that most of these people attended, takes a different approach based on his training with Mr. Lee and his understanding of what his teacher was trying to say. Everyone ends up learning a lot of stuff over the course of a martial arts career. Everyone with any curiosity and drive anyhow. The particular moves and such that work for you become your own JKD in the fullness of time.

So the "Original JKD" guys say that they have rejected classical stupidity by doing exactly what Bruce Lee did and never changing a single thing that The Master taught. Mr. Inosanto and his students take a different tack. They use the ideas, principles and so on as a framework with which they can learn efficiently, incorporate worthwhile stuff, and clear out the deadwood when it stops working. To do this you have to have a firm martial arts foundation.

So why would anyone study JKD? Quite simply because he or she finds a good teacher with skills, the ability to understand what is going on and something useful to impart.

 

[James Kovacich]

So the "Original JKD" guys say that they have rejected classical stupidity by

1)doing exactly what Bruce Lee did and never changing a single thing that The Master taught.

Mr. Inosanto and his students take a different tack. They use the ideas, principles and so on as a framework with which they can learn efficiently, incorporate worthwhile stuff, and clear out the deadwood when it stops working.

2)To do this you have to have a firm martial arts foundation.

So why would anyone study JKD? Quite simply because he or she finds a good teacher with skills, the ability to understand what is going on and something useful to impart.

1)Thats not true, not even close. Nobody serious does that. Those words come from "one" camp. There should not be a split in camps. It should be one art, "two halves of the whole, neither is complete without the other." Your opening up the door for ANYONE to claim JKD without actually learning ANY JKD.

2) JFJKD is the foundation. Dan Inosanto teaches Jun Fan. That is the foundation. If his students leave Jun Fan out, then it becomes a new art.

 

[joeygil]

Wasting time?

Well, that all depends on what you get out of them. If you enjoy doing forms, and gain flexiblity and some exercise, then it's not really a waste of time.

It may be superfluous in the context of becoming a stronger fighter. Note, I didn't say stronger martial artist. I think there's a difference. There's validity in the art aspect.

I'm studying mainly Jun Fan / JKD. I know it has it's limitations in todays MMA / ground fighting world. But that's fine with me, because I don't plan on competing in the UFC. I also don't plan on putting up a fight that could endanger my life if I'm mugged (credit cards are easy to replace). I do this for personal enjoyment and exercise.

And here's the dirty little secret of JKD. It does have some forms (wooden dummy stuff mostly) - but we like to consider them more in the light of drills. We've got the modified version of the Wing Chun wooden dummy form (we call in Jun Fan dummy form), and a newer "Jeet Kune Do wooden dummy form" that encompasses more of what Sijo Bruce Lee developed himself.

 

[Andrew Green]

And I began to wonder if I was not wasting my time focusing on forms and that if it was not time to let go and move on.

For something to be a waste of time you have to look at the end goal. If your end goal is just combat effectiveness, then yes, forms are probably a waste of time.

However, so is painting unless you plan to turn pro, writing without getting published, building model airplanes, watching TV, surfing the internet, spending time at the beach and all sorts of enjoyable things.

For something to be worthwhile it does not necessarily have to lead to some end goal, sometimes things need to be done just for enjoyment.

Now with forms you have something else, there are health benefits. I'm pretty sure the health benefits of Tai chi have been shown in experiments, or at least with some heavy supporting evidence. Forms will keep your body healthy, perhaps more so then more effective training, some of which is hard on the body. Chinese forms especially seem to be about posture, breathing, balance and movement, all of which are really good for you, so to say doing them has no purpose I think is looking at things in a rather narrow way. They might not help you fight, but if they keep your body healthier, for more years and your stress levels lower then they are most certainly worth it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have been re-reading “Tao of Jeet Kune Do” and I am beginning to wonder something. The first time I read it I was recovering from a back injury that took me out of MA and eventually lead me to Taijiquan which I have been training for going on 17 years now and close to 14 years of that has been Traditional Yang style but in addition to Taiji for the last year or so I have been training police-military Sanda and while reading Bruce Lee’s book I find myself thinking that many of the forms that I have been doing and learned in Taiji or just about any CMA might be superfluous. Sanda is simple and direct and has no forms where many other CMA styles are form heavy and somewhat complex. I have nothing against forms, I think they are a good training tool but I am, of late, beginning to think they get in the way of actual martial arts.

I read



And I began to wonder if I was not wasting my time focusing on forms and that if it was not time to let go and move on.

I am also wondering why some people chose Jeet Kune Do over any other art or why they may have switched to Jeet Kune Do form a previous art.

I should also add I do not train JKD nor is it likely I am going to anytime soon. The school near me is rather expensive and I am very happy with Sanda. I am just wondering, actually as I type this I realize I am not 100% sure what I am wondering to be honest. I have been doing forms for a very long time and now I am not 100% sure if I am not wasting my time and I am not exactly what to do next.

I guess I am just looking for some thoughts on forms or the lack thereof form JKD practitioners to help me get a handle on this.

Thanks
XS

Just remember Bruce Lee did do and study forms, then he gave them up.
Sean

 

[joeygil]

Just remember Bruce Lee did do and study forms, then he gave them up.
Sean

Call this sacriligous, but I don't think Sijo Bruce Lee was inffalable. I think Sijo Bruce Lee gave up forms because he himself was far past them. They weren't useful for him, and they no longer helped him in combat effectiveness.

But somebody starting out in their MA journey can benefit from some structure, to learn the proper posture, structure, etc so they know how to do an effective tan sau, or biu jee. I think the idea would be, don't learn a form for the form's sake, but to use it as a training tool towards combat effectiveness. Then when you're done with it, throw it away.

The problem with this can be, if the instructor throws it away, can they still teach it to their students?

It's like when people don't train chi sao. I've heard Sijo Bruce Lee told Sifu Dan to stop teaching chi sao. But how does one learn to hit into emptiness without tactile sensitivity training (chi sao or hubad lubad)?

 

[g-bells]

it's not about the journey, it's the destination, if doing what you have done in the past has led you to where you are now, how can that be a total lose? in the process of finding your way i'm qutie sure you'v found out alot about yourself.The dedication to improve your skills, balance both mentally and physically, footwork, proper mechanics are all not lost.
use what you have learned to make what you do now better.

JKD goal on wooded dummy training is to be able to free flow without a set pattern or form.

Why i do JKD, the directness, emphasis on using what works for you as an individual and the ability to always be able to refine your skills with new knowledge. For me it's an never ending learning process that always has new opportunities

Plus it kicks butt:jaw-dropping: :uhyeah:

 

[still learning]

Hello, When someone on the streets attack you? ...fast and furious? ..throwing everything they know?

How will your forms...protect you? ......do people fight like an attacker in the forms? maybe some?

Every see a MMA fighter use "FORMS" ...for there training? ..or lots of forms too?

There is a difference between training movements and forms? ...some people think it is the same thing? ....NOT

Forms are pre program of set movements...KATA's are forms. Drills are not forms..training movements....

Aloha

 

[joeygil]

I think forms and drills can both be useful to learn the structure, timing (forms to a lesser extent), and flow. I agree forms shouldn't be learned for the sake of forms - unless you are into forms competition or something like that.

I think the reason people originally came up with forms was so they could easily remember them - as they tend to cover the entire gamut of the system. That way they could practice essentially all the moves of the system on their own. I don't think a lot of people centuries ago could train full-time like MMA athletes do.

At this point, I think drills do a better job than forms, if you want combat effectiveness.


And I find the argument about MMA fighters not using forms a little silly. Many of these guys probably did forms or "progessions" (a good way to get away from the "tainted" word of "forms"), when they started out. As they got further in their training, they don't need them anymore and could freeflow. Obviously, when you see videos of these guys training, they don't have videos of them starting out 10 years ago.

That's like suggesting that T-ball shouldn't be taught because you never see professional baseball players using that Tee. T ball is a way to introduce children to the fundamentals of baseball. It's a useful part of the progression, but one that is ultimately thrown away later.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wasting time?

Well, that all depends on what you get out of them. If you enjoy doing forms, and gain flexiblity and some exercise, then it's not really a waste of time.

It may be superfluous in the context of becoming a stronger fighter. Note, I didn't say stronger martial artist. I think there's a difference. There's validity in the art aspect.

I'm studying mainly Jun Fan / JKD. I know it has it's limitations in todays MMA / ground fighting world. But that's fine with me, because I don't plan on competing in the UFC. I also don't plan on putting up a fight that could endanger my life if I'm mugged (credit cards are easy to replace). I do this for personal enjoyment and exercise.

And here's the dirty little secret of JKD. It does have some forms (wooden dummy stuff mostly) - but we like to consider them more in the light of drills. We've got the modified version of the Wing Chun wooden dummy form (we call in Jun Fan dummy form), and a newer "Jeet Kune Do wooden dummy form" that encompasses more of what Sijo Bruce Lee developed himself.

Thanks

For something to be a waste of time you have to look at the end goal. If your end goal is just combat effectiveness, then yes, forms are probably a waste of time.

However, so is painting unless you plan to turn pro, writing without getting published, building model airplanes, watching TV, surfing the internet, spending time at the beach and all sorts of enjoyable things.

For something to be worthwhile it does not necessarily have to lead to some end goal, sometimes things need to be done just for enjoyment.

Now with forms you have something else, there are health benefits. I'm pretty sure the health benefits of Tai chi have been shown in experiments, or at least with some heavy supporting evidence. Forms will keep your body healthy, perhaps more so then more effective training, some of which is hard on the body. Chinese forms especially seem to be about posture, breathing, balance and movement, all of which are really good for you, so to say doing them has no purpose I think is looking at things in a rather narrow way. They might not help you fight, but if they keep your body healthier, for more years and your stress levels lower then they are most certainly worth it.

Thanks, I feel that the forms give you a base when it comes to applications and fighting. Even if that is just teaching you how to move, root, center and breathe.

Just remember Bruce Lee did do and study forms, then he gave them up.
Sean

Thanks

Call this sacriligous, but I don't think Sijo Bruce Lee was inffalable. I think Sijo Bruce Lee gave up forms because he himself was far past them. They weren't useful for him, and they no longer helped him in combat effectiveness.

But somebody starting out in their MA journey can benefit from some structure, to learn the proper posture, structure, etc so they know how to do an effective tan sau, or biu jee. I think the idea would be, don't learn a form for the form's sake, but to use it as a training tool towards combat effectiveness. Then when you're done with it, throw it away.

The problem with this can be, if the instructor throws it away, can they still teach it to their students?

It's like when people don't train chi sao. I've heard Sijo Bruce Lee told Sifu Dan to stop teaching chi sao. But how does one learn to hit into emptiness without tactile sensitivity training (chi sao or hubad lubad)?

BLASPHEMER!!!

I recently read in a book by Ip Chun that Bruce Lee was still going to meet with his Sifu Ip Man to learn higher level Wing Chun right up until Bruce Lee’s untimely death.

Not sure If that is true or not but I found that interesting.

it's not about the journey, it's the destination, if doing what you have done in the past has led you to where you are now, how can that be a total lose? in the process of finding your way i'm qutie sure you'v found out alot about yourself.The dedication to improve your skills, balance both mentally and physically, footwork, proper mechanics are all not lost.
use what you have learned to make what you do now better.

JKD goal on wooded dummy training is to be able to free flow without a set pattern or form.

Why i do JKD, the directness, emphasis on using what works for you as an individual and the ability to always be able to refine your skills with new knowledge. For me it's an never ending learning process that always has new opportunities

Plus it kicks butt

I do not think any of it was a loss and you are right I have learned a lot form the forms I have trained. It was my recent complete lack of learning anything at all form the long form that lead me to begin feeling I was wasting my time training it when there were other things I could train. But I think I figured something out about that too

Hello, When someone on the streets attack you? ...fast and furious? ..throwing everything they know?

How will your forms...protect you? ......do people fight like an attacker in the forms? maybe some?

Every see a MMA fighter use "FORMS" ...for there training? ..or lots of forms too?

There is a difference between training movements and forms? ...some people think it is the same thing? ....NOT

Forms are pre program of set movements...KATA's are forms. Drills are not forms..training movements....

Aloha

True a form is not a fight. It is highly unlikely that I am ever going to be in a confrontation and go though the form one right after the other form posture 1 to posture 81 (depending on how you count forms in Taiji)

I think forms and drills can both be useful to learn the structure, timing (forms to a lesser extent), and flow. I agree forms shouldn't be learned for the sake of forms - unless you are into forms competition or something like that.

I think the reason people originally came up with forms was so they could easily remember them - as they tend to cover the entire gamut of the system. That way they could practice essentially all the moves of the system on their own. I don't think a lot of people centuries ago could train full-time like MMA athletes do.

At this point, I think drills do a better job than forms, if you want combat effectiveness.


And I find the argument about MMA fighters not using forms a little silly. Many of these guys probably did forms or "progessions" (a good way to get away from the "tainted" word of "forms"), when they started out. As they got further in their training, they don't need them anymore and could freeflow. Obviously, when you see videos of these guys training, they don't have videos of them starting out 10 years ago.

That's like suggesting that T-ball shouldn't be taught because you never see professional baseball players using that Tee. T ball is a way to introduce children to the fundamentals of baseball. It's a useful part of the progression, but one that is ultimately thrown away later.

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this since my post and between that and reading the responses here and in another related post on MT I think I feel that the forms are building a base for application and fighting. They train your root, center, breathing, focus and help with physical strength as well. I also believe that doing the form as I have been doing since the beginning of winter in near perfect conditions (inside, on a flat floor, well lit and temperature controlled) is stagnant. However if I take this outside, like I did prior to winter, I begin to learn a lot again. So I guess it is conditionally superfluous not entirely. So I have decided that since I have a whole lot of pictures of my Sifu’s Sifu doing this form that I am going to try and make my form look like his to see what I learn. After that I will just let it naturally evolve to what fits me and then decide what to do.

Thanks for all the responses.

XS

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nice thread Xue. In the end we all have to find our own way. One way or another it does come down to this. On that road however, hopefully we will be taught and nurtured along and progress on the teaching's of our instructors. Still in the end what we do with it is up to us.

Forms might be great and provide stability for one person and to another they may be an encumberance. People sometimes need different things to click to eventually get on down the path.

 

[James Kovacich]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this since my post and between that and reading the responses here and in another related post on MT I think I feel that the forms are building a base for application and fighting. They train your root, center, breathing, focus and help with physical strength as well. I also believe that doing the form as I have been doing since the beginning of winter in near perfect conditions (inside, on a flat floor, well lit and temperature controlled) is stagnant. However if I take this outside, like I did prior to winter, I begin to learn a lot again. So I guess it is conditionally superfluous not entirely. So I have decided that since I have a whole lot of pictures of my Sifu’s Sifu doing this form that I am going to try and make my form look like his to see what I learn. After that I will just let it naturally evolve to what fits me and then decide what to do.

Thanks for all the responses.

XS

That was a good mature post! My students, the ones that I "put in the mix" right away missed out a more solid foundation. By their level they should have a better knowledge of other arts and how to beat them. Even though what I taught them was advanced, in a sense I taught them "one way," my way.

My new students are being taught the way I was taught by my brother-in-law who was an undefeated full contact fighter in the '70's (they kickboxed with Judo).

We trained traditional up until about 5th Kyu (midway to black). Then we did all the same techniques from a kickboxing position which led us to full contact fighting.

I'm giving my students the base they need and the ones the ones that want to stay traditional can, and the group splits into two groups in two differant directions at that point. Some students don't want to get hit so much but still want to learn at their own pace. All students learn how traditional arts train and fight, including the grappling arts. It's easier that way than trying to teach them what other arts do and expecting them to understand why other arts "do what they do."

 

[JohnK]

Forms....

Always follow your bliss. If you enjoy forms, do them by all means. If you're thinking that you need forms, my opinion is no. Forms are not necessary to become a functional fighter or for "street self-defense". In fact, they CAN get in the way if you training time is short.

If you realize that there are many great fighters who never once practiced a form, you'll immediately see that the practice isn't a necessary one. If though its enjoyable (as I said), do them to your heart's desire.

I haven't practiced forms/kata in over 20 years and I have more "game" than at any other time. However, if time isn't a concern, then you don't have a problem (though I'm not insinuating that you have one now, lol).

Just another way of looking at it.

 

[195]

Well when you think about Jkd or tang so do or even savate they all are under the term Martial art. Forms are, for the most part, under the term "art." There are positives and negatives to everything including forms. The negatives being that yes, they do get your mind in a fixed pattern and that they also are not very practical when you fight and having your mind in that fixed pattern can end up hurting you. However forms develop your memory, flexibility, and in my belief creativity. I think every instructor should encourage his or her students to stick to the moves but add a little bit of personality into their forms. Your forms are also a great way to show off your technique and precision and they even teach you structure. We train because we want to expand our knowledge, to deny structure is like denying why we do martial arts. But there also must be a certain emptiness or you will fall into a fixed pattern and fail. I know it sounds contradictary but it is. It's a balance.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But you can still have structure without forms