Should Taekwondo be standardized?

[Miles]

One of the neat things on Spookey's website poll was the question about the future and whether the WTF and ITF will merge. If that happens (or when that happens if you'd prefer) there will likely be a "standard" as to what is (or is not) Taekwondo.

Nevertheless, we can explore the pro's and cons of a standardized Taekwondo now.

In a different thread, JanneM mentioned the Kukkiwon curriculum as being the determining factor (forgive me if my paraphrasing misconstrues your point) as to whether you are practicing Kukkiwon Taekwondo. I'll just "pick on" Kukkiwon for now.

The Kukkiwon does have a standardized method for how techniques are performed, what poomsae are done at each level-guep and dan, how they are done, a specific manner of sparring, etc. But as I've mentioned before, these stated things are "minimums." There is currently a push for standardization-witness the Poomsae seminar recently given in Germany, TX BB mentioned one in TX, the Dartfish DVDs, the Kukkiwon Foreign Instructor Course, etc.

Some of the pro's of the standardization approach is that there is a defined "right" and "other" way of performing techniques/poomsae, etc. This tends to make things universal so that whether you are training in Michigan or Malta, things are done the exact same way with the same terminology.

Another "pro" is marketing-the general public now has a standard which can be ascertained.

Some of the "cons" include the lack of individuality in the expression of the art.

Another would be the potential problem of having instructors who have not learned the "standardized" way being alienated.

These are just a few off the top of my head-it is not a final list-that's the point of the thread.

What do you think? And why?

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Miles first off there can never be standerazation in TKD overall for the simple reason,1. As you stated you are picking on Kukkiwon right now so I will too, the Kukkiwon is all about the sport aspect of TKD as so many people before me has mention, TKD was nor developed for the sport in the beginning. It was developed for the Korean Army. 2. They can never go back to there roots for the simple reason of the sport as long as it is sport driven there can never be a whole the ITF and the almighty tradintional will not let that happen.3. How can you get all those big headed ego's in the same room long enough to get the job done, they have been trying to bring ITF and WTF together for many years and no luck so far.
My last point is a simple one look at the whole as in Martial Talk TKD forum alot of great Ladies and Gentleman on this broad with alot of knowledge and we as a whole can not agree on what is and is not TKD, so how do you suppose that will ever happen.

 

[JanneM]

AS my friends before me I will talk about Kukkiwon baced taekwondo too.

Miles first off there can never be standerazation in TKD overall for the simple reason,1. As you stated you are picking on Kukkiwon right now so I will too, the Kukkiwon is all about the sport aspect of TKD as so many people before me has mention, TKD was nor developed for the sport in the beginning. It was developed for the Korean Army.

Kukkiwon is not about the sport aspect of the art. WTF is for that. Kukkiwon is authority that decides about the belt regurements and about the ways we should perform our basic techics. TKD was not developed for Korean army it was developed to unification of Korean (karate baced) kwans. It had nothing to do with the army. Eaven taekwondo is widely practissed in Korean military it is merely for PE not as combative art for the batlefield.

2. They can never go back to there roots for the simple reason of the sport as long as it is sport driven there can never be a whole the ITF and the almighty tradintional will not let that happen.

ITF has nothing to say what Kukkiwon does or does not.

3. How can you get all those big headed ego's in the same room long enough to get the job done, they have been trying to bring ITF and WTF together for many years and no luck so far.
My last point is a simple one look at the whole as in Martial Talk TKD forum alot of great Ladies and Gentleman on this broad with alot of knowledge and we as a whole can not agree on what is and is not TKD, so how do you suppose that will ever happen.

There has been committees talking about unification since taekwondo departed. Nothing has happend. I don't believe that Kukkiwon style and ITF will ever merge and frankly I don't think that it would be necessary.
I believe that some day on some level WTF and ITF merges as some of ITF really wants to be in Olympics but WTF as bigger and more unified organization has the advantage when talking about Olympic status.
I belive that some day one of the curren ITF organisations (if not all or if not they merge back into one) will be accepted to compete in Olympics under the rules of WTF. But anyway I don't think it will happend any day soon.

About pros an cons Miles talked.
Kukkiwon has started to use physical testing for the higher level (6.-9.dan) teacher to gain in rank. You can not pass your test if you don't do the poomsae in Kukkiwon way. And to hepl teachers to maintain their level of knowledge and to update their tecnics there is Kukkiwon instructor courses and refress coursess.

 

[rmclain]

I really don't see the benefit of merging those organizations. Each one, ITF & WTF, already have their own seperate standardized requirements and curriculum. They even have a different emphasis on their training.

As is, people have a choice as to which flavor of Taekwondo they wish to experience. Just as one person would choose a Chevrolet and another a Ford automobile, the difference in ITF & WTF provides a variety for prospective students to choose. -- Not to mention the other TKD organizations out there.

Already there has been enough arguing and bickering in the past about TKD requirement changes and political affiliations in the WTF. Merging the two organizations will certainly cause more of this within the new organization. What message would this send out to anyone eyeing TKD training for themselves or their family? I can't see anything good coming out of it.

R. McLain

 

[TigerWoman]

So, it would take alot more humility and willingness to come together. What is the motivating factor for standardization? It looked like on the poll, most saw that the ITF would get more segmented-more independents. I see the WTF doing that already. If you go to some states on the USA TKD site, some states have NO clubs. Minnesota only has six or seven. No organizing factor or no motivation to be part of it.

If it was a marketing tool, the public would have a better view of TKD. The organization should stand behind its members, not saying it doesn't already but maybe it could do more. My daughter or son could walk into any dojang in another state and be recognized for her ability etc. from her certificate. A black belt would have to pass not just a minimum set of poomse but other standards as well to measure up. Hey, I did at 50+, it was far from easy but still I wonder, did I measure up?

Why can't we have more than one poomse? I like the ITF's poomse more. But they are harder for beginners, I think. Should we do techniques the same? I, for one, would like more self-defense in the curriculum. How can you practice everything though and still develop and keep the edge for sport competition? Why can't we still have two types of clubs-sport and traditional-with the same requirements for both as the base.

Then there is the loyalty factor to one's grandmaster. If all the grandmaster's don't get into it, roll up their sleeves, put in their 2c and have it honesty viewed and considered equally, there will probably be followings of that grandmaster, still out of the organization. My master says he won't join USA TKD because of the corruption and because of decisions made at tournaments. His grandmaster has gone away from it too. What would it take for them to recognize a new organization?

It would take a core of absolutely honest, humble and motivated leaders. And money should not be close to the top of the motivators. It would be sad to think we can't find enough of those type of leaders. Or maybe I'm an idealist, but those attributes should already be there in the higher echelon. TW

 

[JanneM]

I really don't think that Kukkiwon and ITF should nor they ever will merge as one art but I trully believe that there will be some kind of co operation between WTF and ITF. Chang Un's ITF has already have some dicusions with WTF about merging into one sport or the Olympics. That didn't go too well when committee of Chang Un was demanding that the rules of WTF should be changed to favour the ITF style of sparring. WTF is in no presure to take anybody in without WTF's rules and regulations.

But as I mentioned before I think there should be standardization with in Kukkiwon/WTF. That is the only way we can make our art/sport stronger. To help the taekwondo of the world we have now the instructor courses(for Korean and foreign) the high dan promotion tests (for everyone over 6.dan) and up coming World taekwondo poomsae championships (2006).

 

[JanneM]

I forgot to say.
Kukkiwon regurements are just minimum of learning. Every teacher can teach what ever they want but those things Kukkiwon reguiers (poomsae taeguk/yudanja kyorugi and kyokpa) for the tests should be done well. What ever the teacher wants to teach to students is up to them but those things should be thaught in every taekwondo school. (except ITF)

 

[Adept]

First, let me say I find all this fuss over a simple name quite amusing.

Secondly, what concerns me is not the macro level of which organisations are affiliated with which other organisations. What worries me is smaller, non-affiliated schools who call themselves TKD schools. I started training at such a school, and still train there. Now, who is anyone to go to these smaller schools and say: "We now control what can be called TKD and what cannot. You are no longer a TKD school"? Some people might say that such-and-such an organisation tells us what TKD is. But should anyone be able to do that? And if so, why? What gives them the authority to dictate to the rest of us the name of the style we train in?

 

[JanneM]

First, let me say I find all this fuss over a simple name quite amusing.

Secondly, what concerns me is not the macro level of which organisations are affiliated with which other organisations. What worries me is smaller, non-affiliated schools who call themselves TKD schools. I started training at such a school, and still train there. Now, who is anyone to go to these smaller schools and say: "We now control what can be called TKD and what cannot. You are no longer a TKD school"? Some people might say that such-and-such an organisation tells us what TKD is. But should anyone be able to do that? And if so, why? What gives them the authority to dictate to the rest of us the name of the style we train in?

Anyone can call them selfs what ever they want (taekwondo is not a trade mark) but is it still taekwondo that is the question.

 

[Miles]

Miles first off there can never be standerazation in TKD overall ....My last point is a simple one look at the whole as in Martial Talk TKD forum alot of great Ladies and Gentleman on this broad with alot of knowledge and we as a whole can not agree on what is and is not TKD, so how do you suppose that will ever happen.

I enjoy your posts Terry!

So you are saying it "can't" happen. I am inquiring into "why" it should or "why it should not happen"...a slightly different discussion.

Obviously in one arena-the Kukkiwon, feels it should happen. As I mentioned, Kukkiwon has had in place educational programs to try to make this happen. Kukkiwon obviously has not been successful, especially in places like the United States where there is no mandate (political or social) to have standardization. My own impression is that other countries may be more "standardized" than the U.S. Still, a journey of a 1000 miles begins with a step...

To focus the discussion: Who loses or wins if there is standardization? Who loses or wins if there is no standardization?

Thanks for the thoughtful responses thus far!

Miles

 

[Miles]

First, let me say I find all this fuss over a simple name quite amusing.

Adept, I think you are correct-we should not be focusing on what we call it-I am trying to get people to think about whether we should all be doing the same thing-just using Kukkiwon as a starting point.

Secondly, what concerns me is not the macro level of which organisations are affiliated with which other organisations. What worries me is smaller, non-affiliated schools who call themselves TKD schools. I started training at such a school, and still train there. Now, who is anyone to go to these smaller schools and say: "We now control what can be called TKD and what cannot. You are no longer a TKD school"? Some people might say that such-and-such an organisation tells us what TKD is. But should anyone be able to do that? And if so, why? What gives them the authority to dictate to the rest of us the name of the style we train in?

There you go! This is a reason why there should NOT be standardization-it would cede control or authority to a central body. The benefit of that would be quality control in which instructors have to attend educational programs to maintain their credentials. The primary problem is that it may subject to politics such as you only get to keep your school if you know the right people versus knowing the right stuff.

BTW folks, keep in mind that although we are primarily discussing Kukki-Taekwondo, the "standardization' arguments are omnipresent: physicians, accountants, barbers, builders, heck, even lawyers are required to attend educational programs which are standardized.

Miles

 

[JanneM]

Obviously in one arena-the Kukkiwon, feels it should happen. As I mentioned, Kukkiwon has had in place educational programs to try to make this happen.

I assume that you are now talking about unification and standardization with in Kukkwon/WTF styled taekwondo.
AS I mentioned nor Kukkiwon or WTF has any pressure in mergin with ITF.

To focus the discussion: Who loses or wins if there is standardization? Who loses or wins if there is no standardization?

If (and I mean IF) taekwondo could be standardized in all of the world (With in Kukkiwon/WTF) I think no one would loose anything and we all would gain unified martial art and sport that everybody could practise in all over the world without thinking if these ppl do things like I have done them or do they have different poomsaes or do they fight in different set of rules.

If you do not attend to go out side your dojang and just practise in same place all your life. You can do floorball if you want to and call it schop-suy. But if you think that you are practising taekwondo and you want to practise taekwondo you should know how it should be done.

 

[Miles]

So, it would take alot more humility and willingness to come together. ....No organizing factor or no motivation to be part of it.

TW, you've hit upon why it won't happen (IMHO, sorry to be so pessimistic).

If it was a marketing tool, the public would have a better view of TKD. The organization should stand behind its members, not saying it doesn't already but maybe it could do more. My daughter or son could walk into any dojang in another state and be recognized for her ability etc. from her certificate. A black belt would have to pass not just a minimum set of poomse but other standards as well to measure up. Hey, I did at 50+, it was far from easy but still I wonder, did I measure up?

Yes, you did to answer your question! So from your perspective, marketing is one reason why Kukki-TKD should be standardized.

Why can't we have more than one poomse? I like the ITF's poomse more. But they are harder for beginners, I think. Should we do techniques the same? I, for one, would like more self-defense in the curriculum. How can you practice everything though and still develop and keep the edge for sport competition? Why can't we still have two types of clubs-sport and traditional-with the same requirements for both as the base.

If there were a standard, it could include more than 1 poomsae, or more self-defense in the curriculum. Not sure if this should be tallied as a PRO or CON?

Then there is the loyalty factor to one's grandmaster. If all the grandmaster's don't get into it, roll up their sleeves, put in their 2c and have it honesty viewed and considered equally, there will probably be followings of that grandmaster, still out of the organization. My master says he won't join USA TKD because of the corruption and because of decisions made at tournaments. His grandmaster has gone away from it too. What would it take for them to recognize a new organization?

Political considerations were touched on above. It can be viewed as both a PRO and a CON from the standpoint that if there were an ascertainable standard, then no one who does not meet that standard is not credentialed. The problem is how do you apply the standard-at the instructor level or at an organizational level....sorry, am getting off topic.

I

It would take a core of absolutely honest, humble and motivated leaders. And money should not be close to the top of the motivators. It would be sad to think we can't find enough of those type of leaders. Or maybe I'm an idealist, but those attributes should already be there in the higher echelon. TW

Going to go off-topic while I hop on my soap-box...I agree and would further note that leaders are nothing without followers. If the followers don't follow, the leaders are stripped of their authority.

Miles

 

[Marginal]

I really don't think that Kukkiwon and ITF should nor they ever will merge as one art but I trully believe that there will be some kind of co operation between WTF and ITF. Chang Un's ITF has already have some dicusions with WTF about merging into one sport or the Olympics. That didn't go too well when committee of Chang Un was demanding that the rules of WTF should be changed to favour the ITF style of sparring. WTF is in no presure to take anybody in without WTF's rules and regulations.

Which is why I can't see such a merger happening without TKD becoming more dilluted as a result.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Standardization....... Every art being practiced today has some sort of standards. There has to be to evaulate people and their progress. The bigger the organization, the greater range of standardization. I feel the WTF / Kukkiwon has done a remarkable job in promoting TKD. Contrary to what many may feel towards a Kukkiwon certificate, it still is the standard mark of achievement for TKD. The ITF was at one time almost equal, but since Choi's death and the ITF splitting into several seperate organizations, their importance in the world of TKD has demininshed greatly. So which one of the ITF's would be considered for the merger? If a merger happened, what happens to the other ITF organizations? Should there be a concerted effort to now attempt to have them also merge? Keep in mind that one of those ITF's is located in North Korea.

There is also another thought to ponder. There seems to be (for lack of a better word) a movement to bring TKD back towards it's original concepts and away from the "sport" mentality that now controls training. This movement is predicated on several factors. 1) All the bad politics and criminal activity that has surfaced. 2) The olympic's TKD showing's have degraded to the point where it has become laughable.

Just some additional food for thought................

 

[TigerWoman]

Just another thought... in order to have followers, we should have a vote.
Democracy instead of dictatorship. Those included would be more apt to follow. Its all about communication and how you would communicate with that many? Well, questionaires/surveys first to every club, probably to every black belt just like that survey. Like the sine wave and the snap kick. Which is better? Which should be discarded? Which of all should be kept? Can we teach sport and traditional at the same time, is there enough time? I don't expect anyone to answer my questions really. I just have those popping in my head.

BTW a little off subject, I just sent off, today finally for my Kukkiwon certificates for me, my son and daughter, because I believe they do mean something. I guess I was only the second or third one in my school's history to want one. But that, I also believe is because students weren't educated about it. I learned about it on Martialtalk. All about communication. TW

 

[Miles]

BTW a little off subject, I just sent off, today finally for my Kukkiwon certificates for me, my son and daughter, because I believe they do mean something. I guess I was only the second or third one in my school's history to want one. But that, I also believe is because students weren't educated about it. I learned about it on Martialtalk. All about communication. TW

TW, congratulations to you, your son, and daughter. The Kukkiwon certificate does mean something to me too. It represents a level of skill which is acknowledged internationally (that was one of the neatest things about training at Kukkiwon-meeting folks from all over the globe). It also represents the unified effort of a number of martial arts pioneers. However, I am a little confused why your instructor did not send your applications in, but that's off-topic too.

Miles

 

[Jim Tindell]

Yeah I thought instructors had to send that stuff in. You're just getting them now?!

 

[JanneM]

There is NO democracy in training.

We should not vote what we want to do in donjang and how we want to practise and what we should practise.

There is wise ppl at Kukkiwon tecnical counsil who are gualified to say what all of us should do. Also WTF has well educated ppl who knows about what they are doing. WTF had questionare (and still has) on their homepage where they asked for ppl oppinion about future of competition. (BTW this is a way for all of us to let ppl at WTF to know that we don't like the gloves and foot protectors) Anyway that was not a vote nor was it anything except questionare about fealings of a common man.

We all can vote by our feet. If you don't like the way Kukkiwon teaches stop practising. That is the only way.

(like everything i write also this is just a huge IMHO)

 

[TigerWoman]

No I just gave him, what he needed to send it in. Pictures, more $$ etc. Don't ask. I am just glad I will get them some day. (hopefully)

I can see your point JanneM, there are wiser people on top. But the followers, the masters and grandmasters even, who have gone another way, how to get them back? People have voted with their feet already. How is the trust restored? TW