Self-Defense Applications of the Sword

[tellner]

It really doesn't have to be that involved or that expensive. There are good collectors out there who can sell you fine old Japanese swords in great shape for less than you're talking about. For the kind of money you're talking about Michael Bell could probably guide you through making one of your own.

That's assuming you want a Japanese sword. Just looking at eBay I found a beautiful (antique) wootz shamshir with ivory scales for under $700.

 

[Blindside]

Agreed. Just browsing the links left me with *only* a few hundred options. Ugh. Time to get back into the dojo and use their stuff.

Better to learn the sport first before shelling out a few hundred for an Angus Trim blade that's incorrect for what I'm learning. Though, I do want a katana/wak pair. Of course, the one I wanted ran $2900 :toilclaw:

For a serious practitioner, it appears that this will be even more involved than handgunnery and riflery. Sheesh...I've probably owned fifty handguns in the past decade and discarded most of them as incorrect for my needs. Riflery hasn't been so bad; the M1A does just fine out to 500 yards and my AKs are good for CQB and mid-range shots.

Thanks for the help folks!

Are you telling me you don't have a single gun in your collection that isn't terribly useful for self-defense, but just a heck of alot of fun to shoot? That is what a sword is, a functional useful device that is alot of fun to use, with all the same dangers and responsibilites of a gun.

There is a translation between small blade and large blade, and in the Filipino arts that I study, the transition is relatively seamless, however there are things that you do with a big blade that are simply not possible (or less possible) with a small blade, like certain defangs. Most of the FMA blades tend to be around 30 inches or less, so the translation there is relatively easy.

There is a direct translation between fencing and the bowie, much of what is now taught as bowie knifework has its roots in European fencing.

Incidentally, regarding "obsolete weapons" someone should tell this guy that the ginunting that he is issued is useless in the modern world.

 

[howard]

I wonder if a thread like this could be used against this guy in court one day. It could go a long way towards negating a self defense plea. He is clearly looking for something to use to chop someone up in the event of a home invasion.

???

He observed in his original post that his ultimate intent was to be able to use a sword in self-defense situations.

By your logic, all of the unarmed self-defense training I've done over the years in Hapkido and Jujutsu could negate a self-defense plea if I ever had to use what I've learned in self-defense. After all - and I'm saying this in all seriousness - I am clearly looking for ways to maim or kill anybody who tries to do the same to me without provocation.

You can't know how to stop an intruder or attacker without knowing how to hurt, or even kill, him. I've learned plenty of unarmed techniques that are designed to maim or kill, as has anybody who has studied a Jujutsu-based art for any length of time.

A self-defense plea arising from a physical conflict in which one party is injured or killed will be judged on its facts. Assuming that the situation involved an unprovoked attack and not mutual combat, it's most likely that the primary considerations will be the threat that the victim perceived, and the level of force the victim used to respond to the attack. Was the victim justified in concluding that he was in imminent danger? Was it reasonable for the victim to conclude that the level of force he used was appropriate, given the attack? Did the victim cease his response once the attacker was controlled?

If the victim is a trained martial artist, the original impetus of his training training will be a secondary consideration. A defense attorney may try to use the victim's training against him, but the validity of the self-defense plea will ultimately depend on the facts of the conflict itself.

 

[Charles Mahan]

A defense attorney may try to use the victim's training against him, but the validity of the self-defense plea will ultimately depend on the facts of the conflict itself.

Well in an ideal world, sure. But in the real world, the validity of a self-defense plea will ultimately depend on a jury's interpretation of the facts of a conflict as presented by the prosecuting and defending attorneys along with the judges instruction and the jurors own prejudices.

I'm not saying I approve. Just being pragmatic. Martial artists are sometimes held to a higher standard than the general public. There is a general feeling amoungst the general populace that we tend towards violence as a group. Why else would we seek out and train in how to hurt people? Of course it's a bogus pre-conception, but it's a pretty common one. My wording could have been better in your quote. The original poster is not "clearly" looking forward to chopping someone up, but I can see how an overzealous prosecuting attorney could use this thread to make that point.

The speculation really was meant to question the larger issue of whether or not our posts could one day be used against us in such matters. I'm sure anyone with a little digging could dig up plenty of posts which discuss in callous bloodthirsty detail how different techniques work. You can't really discuss techniques without a little gore coming up now and then.

 

[crebralfix]

There is a translation between small blade and large blade, and in the Filipino arts that I study, the transition is relatively seamless, however there are things that you do with a big blade that are simply not possible (or less possible) with a small blade

Tom Sotis said basically the same thing. Start with a short blade, learn the basics, then extend the length.

 

[tellner]

With all due respect, he's wrong. He may well be good enough to pull it off against most, but they are not the same.

Knife techniques are simply inappropriate for the rapier and its cousins, the shamshir, the longsword, the katana, Chinese straight sword, seme, khotel, and any number of other classic swords. And vice versa. Try the in quintata, passata sotto, counter parry-beat-lunge or other staples of cut and thrust sword fencing with a knife and you will die. Similarly, hold a zweihander in a pikal grip and make quick darting stabs only if you want to give your opponents a good laugh while they carve you to pieces.

 

[thardey]

Someone above mentioned the cutlass -- it may be something worth looking into. It was designed for close-combat with limited space to swing (because of all the ladders, ropes, etc, on a ship) and designed to be used with relatively little training and almost no footwork (because of the pitching, swaying deck). Most sailors spent their free time practicing with cannons, or their ropework and sewing, so the sword evolved to fit that type of lifestyle.

I would find a short, heavy blade that is relatively straight. (cutting and thrusting) They are more for clubbing with an edge than the slicing action of a katana. Also, if you get a pair, they look really cool when hanging crossed on the wall. (I have a cavalry saber [useless for self defense, BTW] crossed with a sharpened live-steel cutlass on my living room wall). It keeps it handy for access, in case you can't get to your gun-safe in the bedroom, but most people think it's a decorative wall hanger, and aren't threatened by it at all.

They are also relatively short, and since the design was originally a sort of lengthed bowie knife, your training should give you a good foundation for the footwork and strategies of the cutlass.

However, be aware that the cuts are thrown entirely different. You have to bring the tip of the blade behind you to get any speed up, but you have, have, have to keep your hand (and more importantly, the guard) between you and your attacker. Otherwise you leave yourself wide open whenever you throw a cut. It feels awkward at first, but you get used to it.

Feel free to PM me for more specifics on the cutlass, if you want.

 

[Blindside]

Tom Sotis said basically the same thing. Start with a short blade, learn the basics, then extend the length.

It isn't THAT easy, and you will run into limitations particularly with two handed weapons, but it can be done. I'd still recommend you pursue sword technique specific training, rather than just adapting the knife to a longer blade.

 

[howard]

crebralfix,

It appears from your posts that you live in Virginia.

If I might offer a suggestion... if you're anywhere near the Tidewater area, there is a sizable Filipino community there (from back in the days when we let Filipinos join the Navy as part of our rent for the Clark and Subic bases over there). There are probably a few FMA schools in that area. You might want to check them out, they are well known for their expertise in using bladed weapons of various lengths.

(I'm originally from Norfolk.)

 

[thrax]

And what looks good is a nice sword cane with a nice point on it. Very effective, and what is another benefit is that it is very likely "semi-non-lethal". Where a firearm is quite lethal. In New York a sword cane is most illegal.....but you can get a concealed carry permit. And so it is ok for me to use state approved deadly force rather than something a bit less deadly to achieve the same goal...

 

[Blindside]

And what looks good is a nice sword cane with a nice point on it. Very effective, and what is another benefit is that it is very likely "semi-non-lethal". Where a firearm is quite lethal. In New York a sword cane is most illegal.....but you can get a concealed carry permit. And so it is ok for me to use state approved deadly force rather than something a bit less deadly to achieve the same goal...

The only way a sword cane would be "semi-non-lethal" is if you were to beat them with the sword cane closed.... maybe. You start poking people with the sharp end and it is just as much a deadly weapon as a handgun.

Lamont

 

[thrax]

You are pretty much right on that. I guess proper training may be advised. It is also a plus if you don't run him through at 1000 fps with a frangible slug. That's why I was thinking the sword cane would be a better alternative.

 

[Blindside]

You are pretty much right on that. I guess proper training may be advised. It is also a plus if you don't run him through at 1000 fps with a frangible slug. That's why I was thinking the sword cane would be a better alternative.

The last stats I looked at had edged weapons having a higher fatality rate than firearms by about 20%. I think those were based off of FBI crime stats.

But what are you saying about "proper training?" That you will poke him in the non-important bits?

 

[crebralfix]

crebralfix,

It appears from your posts that you live in Virginia.

If I might offer a suggestion... if you're anywhere near the Tidewater area, there is a sizable Filipino community there (from back in the days when we let Filipinos join the Navy as part of our rent for the Clark and Subic bases over there). There are probably a few FMA schools in that area. You might want to check them out, they are well known for their expertise in using bladed weapons of various lengths.

(I'm originally from Norfolk.)

Thanks Howard. I'll look into it. The Warriors Forge in Manassas is starting some stick fighting. They'll probably have an FMA instructor for a seminar or two. I've been busy learning some of Marc Denny's material on the side, as well as practicing AMOK basics. Fun stuff and a great aerobic workout!

 

[arnisador]

They'll probably have an FMA instructor for a seminar or two.

That sounds good!

The AMOK folks have some interesting drills. Very lively!