Self Defence or Murder .. a fine line.

[Tez3]

Tez, what's the test for whether something is grappling or not? What criteria do you use to determine whether a takedown is grappling or not? I'm genuinely asking, because you are drawing a distinction where I see none. I would consider ANY takedown, including a rugby style tackle or flinging someone to the ground or grabbing someone and dumping him on his head, to be grappling.

Steve, I'm not drawing any distinction I'm drawing on the laws of evidence. You are reading between the lines using your experience, I'm sticking solely to what is written and nothing more. We can't assume anything at all, we don't know. You consider anything to be grappling because of your experience in grappling and I'm sure you would make an excellent expert witness but given what was written we cannot say whether it was even an actual fight let alone grappling.
When it comes to court it will make a great deal of difference whether it was an unprovoked pick up and slam to the ground or whether they were in fact grappling as in both taking part in it which is why I prefer to stick to strictly what is written and will not speculate whether it was grappling or not. We may get to read more once a trial has begun. If the police find it was a slam down without any resistance or movement from the deceased the other chap may well also be charged, not with murder but certainly something.

 

[Buka]

Tez, what's the test for whether something is grappling or not? What criteria do you use to determine whether a takedown is grappling or not? I'm genuinely asking, because you are drawing a distinction where I see none. I would consider ANY takedown, including a rugby style tackle or flinging someone to the ground or grabbing someone and dumping him on his head, to be grappling.

The OP said "flung to the ground" in one place and said "who retaliated with a push" in another. I'm not sure what the flung to the ground consisted of, but a push is pretty easy to figure. I don't think either is grappling in the sense that I know it. If the guy was trained in grappling, flinging or pushing, that's one thing, but if he wasn't, it was instinctual. Probably just semantics. And semantics aren't really important until you get to court.

 

[Hanzou]

The article says that the victim was "flung" to the ground.

Flung also means "thrown". So in other words, he was thrown to the ground.

What Steve, myself, and others are saying is that if this guy knew grappling, he'd have a better chance of not getting thrown to the ground, and if he landed, he would have had a better chance of reducing the damage when he landed via Breakfalling and other exercises.

Is anyone saying that he'd still be alive today if he was a black belt in Judo? No, but you ever try to push or throw a black belt in Judo?

 

[Steve]

I would say a trip, tackle or slam all qualify as grappling. Whether trained or untrained.

If you are on the ground by means of someone placing their hands on you and moving you there, you have been grappled.


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[Steve]

The OP said "flung to the ground" in one place and said "who retaliated with a push" in another. I'm not sure what the flung to the ground consisted of, but a push is pretty easy to figure. I don't think either is grappling in the sense that I know it. If the guy was trained in grappling, flinging or pushing, that's one thing, but if he wasn't, it was instinctual. Probably just semantics. And semantics aren't really important until you get to court.

Could be. I'm not a lawyer, proud to say.


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[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding the OP, yes, I would consider it murder. I'm not a lawyer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Regarding this;

No stomping has a place outside the dojo. And that is to try to kill people when they are basically unable to defend themselves. And so maybe not the best thing to be drilling in to people.

Depending on the context, almost nothing outside of de-escalation, non violent escapes, rolling and falling has any place outside of the dojo.
Depending on the context, almost everything has a place outside of the dojo.

 

[Tez3]

The article says that the victim was "flung" to the ground.

Flung also means "thrown". So in other words, he was thrown to the ground.

What Steve, myself, and others are saying is that if this guy knew grappling, he'd have a better chance of not getting thrown to the ground, and if he landed, he would have had a better chance of reducing the damage when he landed via Breakfalling and other exercises.

Is anyone saying that he'd still be alive today if he was a black belt in Judo? No, but you ever try to push or throw a black belt in Judo?

By the account in the newspaper he was very intoxicated so it's doubtful he could intelligently defend himself. Alcohol can make the best fighter in the world useless. Has anyone noticed that the article doesn't say exactly who put him on the floor? We are left to assume it's the guy who pushed but it doesn't say so.

 

[Steve]

By the account in the newspaper he was very intoxicated so it's doubtful he could intelligently defend himself. Alcohol can make the best fighter in the world useless. Has anyone noticed that the article doesn't say exactly who put him on the floor? We are left to assume it's the guy who pushed but it doesn't say so.

We know what the senior detective said:

"Sen-Det Salerno said a fight broke out between Mr Hardy and Mr Zandipour, during which the latter “used his arm to hook the deceased under his armpits and flip him” upside down.

When Mr Hardy landed on the concrete, Mr Zandipour allegedly kicked him several times and stomped on his head."

I don't know, guys. Whether trained or not, that sounds a LOT like grappling to me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know, guys. Whether trained or not, that sounds a LOT like grappling to me.

I agree; you can strike or grapple without any training whatsoever. Training simply (hopefully) makes you better at doing so.

 

[Tez3]

We know what the senior detective said:

I don't know, guys. Whether trained or not, that sounds a LOT like grappling to me.

Steve, if you witnessed the altercation and was asked to make a statement what would you say, would you say they 'grappled' or would you describe exactly what you say leaving out what you considered it was? If you say 'grapple' to a jury you are leading them to believe they were wrestling, that both men were taking part in the action. If you describe it exactly as happened without saying grappling you give the jury a much clearer idea.
If the deceased was stood and was flipped by the other man, that's what it was. Your opinion that it was grappling is a subjective one that will be overruled by the judge. it doesn't matter what you and I think it was. It has to be described as it has been in the newspaper, besides I'm not sure one person doing all the moves is real grappling, like sex it really has to have more than one to make it realistic.

I know you guys like to turn nouns into verbs ie to medal, to podium though. The guy who slammed the deceased down did a grappling movement he didn't actually grapple.

 

[K-man]

Head stomping on the ground is seriously considered a martial arts move that you teach? Your students better be very careful with that. That's a quick way to end up in jail for a very long time.

As for being on the ground, every situation isn't a multiple assailant situation.

I can't understand where you are coming from. In previous posts you have said that there are no rules in NHB competition so all the talk about too deadly is rubbish, now you say that you are surprised I teach a stomp. Well you might be surprised that I teach a number of lethal techniques as do most TMA schools. That is what we have been talking about in other threads.

Why do people in the US carry guns. Funny thing, to kill people. So what is the difference? You have to learn what is and what isn't appropriate force.

As to teaching the stomp. Who said it has to be to the neck or head? In my teaching it is mainly to the ankle so you can run away and not have someone chase you. On other occasions it might be to the chest. But in the situation where you may be traveling in a relatively lawless environment and are set upon by a gang or even the threat of kidnap or worse there are no rules. You do what you need to do to save your life.

My training sounds very much like Brian's. That's why I would love to have the opportunity to train with him. We don't spend hours training with weapons to fight in the ring. We train that if a situation was to arise in which you are fighting for your life you have a reasonable chance of going home.

So in answer to your question, yes, a head stomp is certainly part of RBMA training. Of course, that is tempered with teaching of when martial art techniques are appropriate.

 

[Steve]

Steve, if you witnessed the altercation and was asked to make a statement what would you say, would you say they 'grappled' or would you describe exactly what you say leaving out what you considered it was? If you say 'grapple' to a jury you are leading them to believe they were wrestling, that both men were taking part in the action. If you describe it exactly as happened without saying grappling you give the jury a much clearer idea.
If the deceased was stood and was flipped by the other man, that's what it was. Your opinion that it was grappling is a subjective one that will be overruled by the judge. it doesn't matter what you and I think it was. It has to be described as it has been in the newspaper, besides I'm not sure one person doing all the moves is real grappling, like sex it really has to have more than one to make it realistic.

I know you guys like to turn nouns into verbs ie to medal, to podium though. The guy who slammed the deceased down did a grappling movement he didn't actually grapple.

Tez, I have to say, it's like you're trying to be intentionally offensive. It's becoming harder and harder to presume good intent from you on this.

First, it's my basic understanding of what grappling is or isn't. Then it's my reading comprehension. After I pointed out EXACTLY where the article says what happens in enough detail to fully support my statements, you suggest I just can't speak English because I'm American and we talk funny??? Come on. Stop busting my balls.

I'm not a witness. I'm also not in a courtroom. I'm casually discussing the topic at hand with a diverse group of martial artists all with different professional and personal backgrounds. I used a term. I defined the term. I clarified my meaning. And I supported my statements with a quote directly from the article that is contrary to what you said. I'm doing my best to be clear.

For what it's worth, "grapple" is also a verb:

[h=2]Definition of grapple (v)[/h]Bing Dictionary

• grap·ple
• [ grápp'l ]
• 
  

• struggle with somebody: to struggle with somebody in a close hand-to-hand fight
• struggle to deal with something: to struggle to deal with or comprehend something
• grab somebody: to grab hold of somebody

 

[K-man]

Some more detail and more confusion.

The original report ..

The Herald Sun has been told the fight began when an intoxicated Mr Hardy tripped Mr Zandipour’s friend, who *retaliated with a push.

An out-of-sessions court session heard Mr Hardy “staggered” to the pair’s outside table, appearing to be drunk as he struck up a conversation with the men. Mr Hardy appeared to try to trip Mr Zandipour as he left and a fight broke out, in which Mr Zandipour allegedly flipped Mr Hardy on to the concrete, kicked him and stomped on his head.
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

How do you trip someone as you are leaving and what does 'appeared to trip' imply?
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Tez, I have to say, it's like you're trying to be intentionally offensive. It's becoming harder and harder to presume good intent from you on this.

First, it's my basic understanding of what grappling is or isn't. Then it's my reading comprehension. After I pointed out EXACTLY where the article says what happens in enough detail to fully support my statements, you suggest I just can't speak English because I'm American and we talk funny??? Come on. Stop busting my balls.

I'm not a witness. I'm also not in a courtroom. I'm casually discussing the topic at hand with a diverse group of martial artists all with different professional and personal backgrounds. I used a term. I defined the term. I clarified my meaning. And I supported my statements with a quote directly from the article that is contrary to what you said. I'm doing my best to be clear.

For what it's worth, "grapple" is also a verb:

Definition of grapple (v)

Bing Dictionary

• grap·ple
• [ grápp'l ]
• 
  

• struggle with somebody: to struggle with somebody in a close hand-to-hand fight
• struggle to deal with something: to struggle to deal with or comprehend something
• grab somebody: to grab hold of somebody

So let's make it clear. Your definition of grappling had nothing to do with grappling in an MMA sense. That is what is confusing the is due.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my teaching it is mainly to the ankle so you can run away and not have someone chase you.

That is the context in which I teach it.

 

[Steve]

Some more detail and more confusion.

The original report ..
How do you trip someone as you are leaving and what does 'appeared to trip' imply?
:asian:

Honestly, the picture I have in my head, after having read the account, is that the guy sat down with these other two dudes at the McDs. He didn't know them, and was drunk. One of the two friends stood up to leave, and the drunk guy stuck his leg out to trip him. They scuffled. Drunk guy was thrown.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As to teaching the stomp. Who said it has to be to the neck or head? In my teaching it is mainly to the ankle so you can run away and not have someone chase you. On other occasions it might be to the chest. But in the situation where you may be traveling in a relatively lawless environment and are set upon by a gang or even the threat of kidnap or worse there are no rules. You do what you need to do to save your life.

It's the head-stomp that I have objections to, not kicks or stomps elsewhere. I'll frequently teach a quick kick to the groin of a downed attacker (if the target is readily available) before running away, as that will slow him down if he gets up to give chase. The head stomp is not only potentially lethal - it's lethal force applied to someone who is probably not an immediate threat.

Are there theoretical scenarios where lethal force against a downed opponent could be justified? Yes. However the odds of most people ever being in one of those scenarios are lower (IMO) than the odds of someone using that force where it is not justifiable if that's the way they've trained.

 

[Balrog]

There are some really good points on this thread. One of the most important was made by K-man in that being drunk or intoxicated in public is generally not a good idea. You can cut down a lot of potential problems by simply just eliminating this from your routine!

This, more than anything.

As martial artists, we are supposed to control our environment. Being drunk or wasted on drugs allows our environment to control us, and that ain't good.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So let's make it clear. Your definition of grappling had nothing to do with grappling in an MMA sense. That is what is confusing the is due.

I know that this question was directed to Steve, but I'm going to answer because internet.

Lots of arts have grappling incorporated into them, but grappling is grappling and can be done outside of the context of being trained in a particular system. Grappling encompasses everything from wristlocks to armbars to throwing to groundwork.

An untrained person can (and in this situation, apparently did) grapple. Some untrained people are just good at it to, either through intuitive getting it or through years of trial and error (having siblings can be helpful in that process).

"Using his arm to hook the deceased under his armpits and flip him upside down" is grappling. The fact that it was not in an MMA context or even an MA context does not alter that.

 

[K-man]

We may get to read more once a trial has begun. If the police find it was a slam down without any resistance or movement from the deceased the other chap may well also be charged, not with murder but certainly something.

I think it's pretty clear this guy is off the hook.

Police said a second man who was questioned by detectives over the attack was released and would not face any charges.
Man charged with murder over attack outside Melbourne fast food restaurant remanded in custody - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

:asian: