Seeking Explanation Re: TKD

[MartialArtsChic]

Okay all TKD dudes/dudettes. Please explain this to me as I think somewhere along the line I must have missed something.

Why do people only see TKD as a sport???????

My first school was TKD and I always thought of it as self defense. I went in there to learn something I always wanted to learn and for self defense and that's what I got out of it. I learned the front kick/roundhouse/axe/outside & inside crescent kicks there and numerous blocks and I still use them today in my art. I left there for reasons other then the art and actually wished I could have found a good TKD school here, but really couldn't.

I read about it being a sport, I scratch my head and I just think the front kick I learned from TKD can nail your "you know what" and send you flying, so where would the sport be in this??? I see it as self defense. Same goes for my other kicks. My blocks can ward off a punch, among other things, where's the sport? I see that as self defense.

So maybe somewhere I missed something so if anyone can shed some light on it, please do. I guess I'm getting tired of reading things about it being a sport and not a real art and stuff and I just don't understand.

Thanks.

Lorrie

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Part of the problem is the fact that in certain 'real world' situations, the flashy moves that are the perceived trademark of TKD don't work. (Try a high head shot while standing on ice...not good).

Part is a perception.

Part is in the approach. Sport arts are not self defence arts. Sport arts focus around scoring points, winning tropheys, and the concept of sportsmanship. Self defence is about keeping yourself safe. A throat shot is not a good thing in sport, but in self defence is a legit target.

I've sparred 2 TKD people to date. I ran the black belt off the mat repeatedly...there were a few comments of 'thats not a legal target'. The green belt who had trained with a more combat oriented instructor on the other hand gave me a hell of a work out.

TKD gets the press as its one of the most visible arts. In reality, theres good and bad implimentations in all arts. TKD when taught and learned right can be excellent for self defence. Too many people however learn the sport arts and think they are able to do self defence....and sadly learn the truth the hard way.

Remember....Tae Bo is just an excercise system, yet its being touted as a self defence system, complete with belt ranks now....

If your instructor focuses on tourneyments, medals, trophys, and awards, you're probably learning sport TKD.

If they go over real world applications, etc, then its more likely self defence oriented.

Again, your milage may vary.

:asian:

So, what do the TKD folks say?

 

[jkn75]

Originally posted by MartialArtsChic
Why do people only see TKD as a sport???????

First, I'd like a little clarification, which people? People in martial arts or laypeople who only know martial arts from TV, movies and their neighbors' cousin who had a blck belt in "karate"(meaning any martial art b/c they have no clue about which MA it actually is).

The answer IMO is very different depending on the people who see TKD as a sport.

 

[RCastillo]

There has never been a real expressed intent toward real self defense. (Inside) Applications are very few, and far between.

It can be a very strong art, but you gotta have someone to move away from the traditional apsects, and get down to real business.

Some of us just aren't cut out to be Chuck Norris, or Bill Wallace when it comes to the kicking.:asian:

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Part is in the approach. Sport arts are not self defence arts. Sport arts focus around scoring points, winning tropheys, and the concept of sportsmanship. Self defence is about keeping yourself safe. A throat shot is not a good thing in sport, but in self defence is a legit target.

There's also just how Olympic rules sparring looks. Typical posture is arms down limp to the sides, and punching's discouraged. For good or bad, people see that, and think "This is TKD." That may or may not hold true for sparring sessions in any particular dojang though. Some that are more SD oriented do worry about punching to the head etc outside of competition and so on, and other federations that don't have to worry about olypmic rules don't typically use rule sets that discourage punching.

I've sparred 2 TKD people to date. I ran the black belt off the mat repeatedly...there were a few comments of 'thats not a legal target'. The green belt who had trained with a more combat oriented instructor on the other hand gave me a hell of a work out.

Wasn't there any agreement on what sparring rules were going to be used beforehand with the blackbelt? Would've kept his complaining down. (I know I'd be annoyed if a MT guy came to spar and started battering my thighs without some kind of mutual agreement beforehand.)

Does depend a lot on the training as the green belt illustrates tho. I've held my own against boxers and kenpoists before etc. Definitely buyer beware.

If your instructor focuses on tourneyments, medals, trophys, and awards, you're probably learning sport TKD.

Mmm... Nothing wrong with doing the tourney scene as long as there's balance to it all. Don't have to eschew one for the other IMO. (I know I tend to get a lot more pad work etc before a tournament which is never a bad thing...)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

heh.

The guy I ran off the mat was just with kicks. He kept doing this fancy jumping stuff.... I kept waiting for him to 'morph' and call in his 'megazord'. :rofl:

Seriously, you're right. Nothing wrong at all with the tournys. Its just when folks get so fixated on the 'tourny' style that they put themselves in risk in a SD situation. Happens in alot of arts too...folks get so trained to pull their punches than when they actually have to hit someone they hit at qtr power..which ends up in their getting a world of hurt.

I've seen some real good TKD folks though.... I think 1 of our members even does the more serious military stuff.

:asian:

 

[Disco]

OK, I guess I'll start with this story. It's true by the way. 18 year old 2nd Dan BB, who was very good in tournaments, comes into the school monday afternoon. He is sporting a nice shinner and assorted bruises. Asked if he has been in an auto accident, his reply is no!, been in a fight at the pool hall. Upon further inquiry as to the why's and how's, long story short, he reacted as he trains. Point sparring mentality (focus on point scoring targets), opened the door for his adversary. His good conditioning and overall training allowed him to prevail. He was lucky. How do I know all this? I was a senior BB at this school and tried for years to convince the school owner (Korean Master), to refocus on self defense. Why was I different? I held a BB ranking in another style when I joined this school. Yes I did start as a white belt, My choice. Did the school refocus? NO!..... Would have cost him to much money. Sports / competition produce revenue. TKD has taken to this concept BIG TIME. Are there schools out there that really teach self defense in TKD? Yes there are, but very limited in number. Can TKD be effective for self defense? You can bet your paycheck on it, if - repeat if - it's taught correctly.

Kaith, shame on you for the on ice analogy. Can't even throw a punch on ice without slipping, but I know what you mean and you are right in some respects. Fancy, I hate using that word. High kicks... that's better. Can they work? Yes!.. Should everybody do them? NO!... Would I ever use them? Sure, if the attacker fell to his knee's, cause at my age that's about as high as it's gonna go. :rofl:
It all depends on the practicioner. Were talking about range of motion and target availabilty. We've all seen them used on UFC, Tai fights, K-1 etc. And that's against trained fighters. What we all seem to forget is that the VAST majority of martial artists are suppose to be training for the street, not the ring. Do I advocate going high? NO!.... Do I rule it out totally? Also NO!... Now for sparring people as you stated. You went into a sport mind concept and altered the rules. This proved what? We are in basic agreement on the state of TKD and if is taught correctly.

My answer to who see's TKD as a sport is both martial artists in general and all laypeople. Really can't argue with the fact that it's billed as an Olympic Sport. :wah:

Am I still associated with that school? No, not for many years now. Why? Because unless you carry the trophy or medal you win and use it as a weapon against your attacker, most of the modern TKD people (operative word "most") will have a hard time in the street if that's all they have ever been taught. :asian:

 

[MartialArtsChic]

Okay. Now I'm getting the picture. Thanks.

 

[Mithios]

It depend's on what system of T.K.D. your talking about. I.T.F. , W.T.F. There off shoot's or the classical kwan system's and there off shoot's etc,etc. T.K.D. is more of a generic name these day's and there are many flavor's!! Mithios

 

[Galvatron]

I guess the TKD school I work out at is the exception, not the norm.

I train under Master Ron Berry in Orange Park, FL. His classes consist of strenuous kicking drills, but also plenty of hand/punching techniques that border on boxing. On certain nights he also teaches Hapkido. When "Competition Season" comes around he holds a seperate class for competitors to train them for tournament fighting.
I've never once heard him recommend or teach a "flashy" jumping kick in a fight situation, in fact he frequently teaches kicking to the knees/hips/legs for "street" situations.

TKD suffers an image problem as a whole, because of it's sheer popularity. If Kenpo or Brazilian Jui Jitsu were as widespread as TKD, you'd see people lining up to bash those styles too, because there would be plenty of schools and instructors out there who were in it just for the money, and pumping out sub-par students.

On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of TKD instructors out there who still teach it as a highly effective form of fighting.

 

[MartialArtsChic]

Originally posted by Galvatron

I train under Master Ron Berry in Orange Park, FL. His classes consist of strenuous kicking drills, but also plenty of hand/punching techniques that border on boxing. On certain nights he also teaches Hapkido. When "Competition Season" comes around he holds a seperate class for competitors to train them for tournament fighting.
I've never once heard him recommend or teach a "flashy" jumping kick in a fight situation, in fact he frequently teaches kicking to the knees/hips/legs for "street" situations.

This was the way my 1st school was too at the beginning, which is why, I guess, I was confused about the sport thing. Though my exposure was limited, the actual art was taught for self defense.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Disco
Kaith, shame on you for the on ice analogy. Can't even throw a punch on ice without slipping, but I know what you mean and you are right in some respects.

heh. No disrespect was intended....I'm from Buffalo...we're icy at least half the year....punches, I'm ok with, but balance suffers greatly.

:asian:

 

[Mithios]

I noticed on your profile that your in combat hapkido, So am i. When will you be going for Black ? What are your favorite aspects of the system ? MITHIOS

 

[MartialArtsChic]

Originally posted by Mithios
I noticed on your profile that your in combat hapkido, So am i. When will you be going for Black ? What are your favorite aspects of the system ? MITHIOS

I'll be going for Black in April, 2004 - they haven't set official date yet. I love the entire system and it's so much fun. I don't think I can really pinpoint one favorite. Everytime we do anything I'm usually like, "oh yeah, I like that, let's play". It's a great system for women too self defense wise for all the jointlocks, pressure points and ground grappling aspects of it.

What rank are you?

 

[Guro Harold]

Sport means there are rules that govern the participants by mutual consent.

Boxing is a sport. People have been seriously hurt and killed.

Soccer, football, and rugby are sports. People can get seriously injured playing them as well.

The key is does it apply on the streets and real life situations.

Therefore "Sport TKD" like anything else can cause injury and damage, however, holding all things constant, will a barfly let you kick? Are you able to kick or pull off a sport technique? What if you split your pants?

 

[white dragon]

MartialArtsChic :
Sounds like you and I have pretty similar backgrounds in TKD training and that we'll hopefully both be going for black around the same time!

I'd always had this idea in my head of what TKD was, which was a pretty solid self defence orinentated martial art. We practiced WTF patterns and we did about one big competition a year, the build up for which we would put on the body armour and train competition rules. The rest of the ime however when sparring pretty much anything was allowed, as long as it wasn't too heavy. This included locks, sweeps, face punching, etc. It was naturally a giant shock to me when I went to a different class, also WTF and found that they only train using competition rules, they have people ranking blackbelt that have never thrown a punch to someone's face or really tried to apply any of their self defense moves outside the safety of a "one-step" environment.

I think as others have pointed out, it's not a case of which organisation you're linked too, but the motivation of your actual instructor. I can spar using WTF rules and not do too badly, I've won medals at the student nationals, but generally I'm nothing special at all. However I can fight the same people free sparring and they don't stand a chance (really not wanting to sound arrogant!). I guess it realy just depends on what your goal in the world of martial arts is, personally I'd rather never win a gold and be able to stand more of a chance in a street fight, but each to their own, just make sure you know what you're getting when you join a club.

 

[MountainSage]

Loved all the responses, so here's a curveball for you, Chic. My TKD instructor and Master teach more life skills than either self-defense or sparring. We spend a lot of time learning and perfecting proper breathing, self awareness, body mechanics, meditation, and calmness under pressure. We do A LOT of basics. My teachers statement is "deeper, not wider" when it comes to technique.

Mountainsage

 

[Disco]

From the movie, there were some pearls of wisdom. Like, "Don't want to be hit, then no be there" and "Belt holdup pants". Plus the old standby, "Waxa On - Waxa Off"....... OH, there was one other that comes to mind that follows along what Mountainsage offered. It was " Danialson... It not quantity but quality of your karate that matter"....

TKD is very formabidable for self defense, if the mindset is right. Sometimes, the student must become the teacher if the teacher dosen't teach........:asian:

 

[MartialArtsChic]

Originally posted by white dragon
MartialArtsChic :
Sounds like you and I have pretty similar backgrounds in TKD training and that we'll hopefully both be going for black around the same time!

I'd always had this idea in my head of what TKD was, which was a pretty solid self defence orinentated martial art. We practiced WTF patterns and we did about one big competition a year, the build up for which we would put on the body armour and train competition rules. The rest of the ime however when sparring pretty much anything was allowed, as long as it wasn't too heavy. This included locks, sweeps, face punching, etc. It was naturally a giant shock to me when I went to a different class, also WTF and found that they only train using competition rules, they have people ranking blackbelt that have never thrown a punch to someone's face or really tried to apply any of their self defense moves outside the safety of a "one-step" environment.

I think as others have pointed out, it's not a case of which organisation you're linked too, but the motivation of your actual instructor. I can spar using WTF rules and not do too badly, I've won medals at the student nationals, but generally I'm nothing special at all. However I can fight the same people free sparring and they don't stand a chance (really not wanting to sound arrogant!). I guess it realy just depends on what your goal in the world of martial arts is, personally I'd rather never win a gold and be able to stand more of a chance in a street fight, but each to their own, just make sure you know what you're getting when you join a club.

Black - April, 2004 - can't wait. My 1st school didn't really do competition stuff. They ended up, before I left, having some sort of Fight Club type thing which you had to "audition" for. The guy running the school wanted to start something going back and forth with other local schools.

I'm the same way, I'd rather have the chance in a street fight. Competition was never my thing in anything I've done. I can spar and may not win, but won't make it easy for you. I'd never make it in competition anyway, I hit too hard and would probably get disqualified for illegal things anyway. lol

 

[MartialArtsChic]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Loved all the responses, so here's a curveball for you, Chic. My TKD instructor and Master teach more life skills than either self-defense or sparring. We spend a lot of time learning and perfecting proper breathing, self awareness, body mechanics, meditation, and calmness under pressure. We do A LOT of basics. My teachers statement is "deeper, not wider" when it comes to technique.

Mountainsage

Good for you. A full well-rounded experience.

Disco: "Belt holdup pants".

Not really for me. I found that yanking them up, drawing the drawstring real tight and folding the top over works best.