Season 1 Episode 4: Pirate vs Knight

Discussion in 'The Deadliest Warriors' started by Bob Hubbard, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Episode 4: Pirate vs Knight

    Knight Team: David Coretti (Army Veteran/Sword Expert), Josh Paugh (Medieval Weapons Expert)
    Pirate Team: Michael Triplett (Pirate Weapons Master), David Hernandez (Sword Fighting Instructor)
    Knight Weapons: Morningstar, Crossbow, Halberd, Broadsword, Plate Armor
    Pirate Weapons: Grenado, Flintlock Pistol, Blunderbuss, Cutlass, Boarding Axe

    Pirate Knight Advantage
    Close Range: Cutlass Broadsword Even
    Mid Range: Blunderbuss Halberd Blunderbuss
    Long Range: Flintlock Pistol Crossbow Crossbow
    Special Weapons: Grenado Morningstar Grenado
    Close Range Offense Vs. Defense: Boarding Axe Plate Armor Plate Armor
    - Both swords were tested against pig carcasses; the broadsword cleaved its pig in half while the cutlass almost managed to do the same. The contest was declared a draw with both showing high killing power, despite the fact that the judges had gone much further in testing for more accurate data with other weapons.
    -The Blunderbuss, despite a misfire, was able to put a hole with one of its pellets through a double plate armor layer. The Halberd was a deadly and versatile weapon, as it managed to cut up a gel torso's head. However, because of the Blunderbuss's power of penetration and concussion, it was given the advantage.
    -Both ranged weapons were tested on dummies, with the crossbow bolt penetrating deeply into an unprotected dummy. The flintlock, meanwhile, was able to dent but not penetrate the single breastplate on its dummy. Furthermore, Triplett called his shot but missed, indicating inaccuracy in the flintlock. The crossbow took the win thanks to its killing power, accuracy, and the deficiencies of the flintlock.
    -The Morningstar proved to be a fast and deadly close-range weapon when it shattered a dummy skull with one swing. The Grenado was detonated inside a plexiglass box with several pigs, one having an armor plate. The grenado produced a great blast, tearing holes in the unprotected pigs. However, it failed to penetrate the armor at close range. With both weapons effective the win was given to the grenado for its concussion, shock value, and shrapnel.
    -The Plate Armor was tested throughout the show, being effective against most of the Pirate weapons. The Boarding Axe put a very small hole in a Knight helmet, but didn't penetrate it. The edge was given to the armor for its defense power.

    Simulation 4

    This simulation begins much like the other ones in a forest area near a beach. A Pirate appears and finds a chest full of gold, and is about to return to his ship, but a Knight on horseback approaches him. The Pirate pulls out a flintlock pistol and the Knight charges him. The Pirate evades the Knight and fires his flintlock, missing completely, and follows up with another shot hitting the Knight's armor, but he is unaffected. The Knight comes around and swings his morningstar at the Pirate, knocking off his hat, but missing his head (although there was a sound of impact so it most likely struck his shoulder). The Pirate, realizing he cannot win like this, retreats, unpacks his grenado, lights it, and throws it up in the air at the passing Knight, who suffers a direct explosion from the grenado, knocking him off the horse, and dazing him. The Pirate approaches the inanimate Knight, only to be shot in the leg by the now conscious Knight's crossbow. In pain, he removes the bolt, and quickly dodges another strike from the Knight's morningstar, rolling to the ground and countering with his blunderbuss. The Knight this time is injured, but not dead. He pursues the retreating Pirate, who in unaware the Knight is on his trail. The Pirate finally becomes aware the Knight is following him, and uses another of his flintlocks, which once again fails to penetrate the Knight's armor. The two then clash at a short-range battle on the beach, with both warriors displaying good but different sword-fighting. The Knight tries to disarm the Pirate but fails. The Knight, with his visor raised, forces the Pirate back and begins to swing wildly at him. However, the Pirate perches himself on top of a rock, parrys a blow, jumps down, and throws some sand at the Knight's exposed eyes. The Knight tackles the Pirate, knocking them both down, but he has trouble recovering due to his heavy armor. The Pirate gets up, retrieves his last flintlock pistol and crawls towards the Knight. With the Knight incapacitated, the Pirate lifts the Knight's visor and fires his flintlock pistol at point blank range into the Knight's face. The dead Knight slumps back as the Pirate lets out a cry of triumph.
    Overall Winner: Pirate
    This battle pitted Blackpowder Offense against Plate Armor Defense; in the end, although the Knight had vastly superior armor, it came down to, as Geoff said, "bringing a knife to a gun fight". The Pirate had more modern weapons, and although they were partially inaccurate, they were forceful enough to do massive damage when they hit. The blunderbuss was particularly deadly, and was the most effective weapon in the simulation by far, scoring nearly as many kills on its own as the Knight did with all of his weapons. It also has the greatest number of kills made by an outdated ranged weapon on the show.

    Knight Pirate
    Overall Kills: 371 629
    Close Range: Broadsword: 103 Cutlass: 25 Boarding Axe: 13
    Mid Range: Halberd: 108 Blunderbuss: 352
    Long Range: Crossbow: 106 Flintlock Pistol: 41
    Special Weapons: Morningstar: 54 Grenado: 198

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_Warrior

     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2010
  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I've seen a few of these episodes, and I think that sometimes the choice of weaponry is a little odd. This particular episode gives a pretty clear example.

    For the Knight's long range weapon, they gave him the crossbow. While the crossbow is certainly a weapon from the era, I do not believe it was in use by the knights in warfare. The only time an actual knight would have used a crossbow is probably during times of peace, during the hunt.

    Crossbowmen were in a regiment of their own, and were strategically used as a unit to attack and harass the enemy from a distance, and shoot down the knights and other enemy soldiers before they could get close enough for hand-to-hand and whatnot.

    the knight did not carry the crossbow to discharge at will against the enemy, depending on his circumstances. Rather, the knight was part of the heavy horse soldiery, and they carried the long lance for the massed charge, and then shorter weaponry such as the sword, mace, and axe for close range fighting.

    The halberd is another weapon of the era that is unlikely to have been used by the knights. Halberdiers were again grouped in their own ranks and used strategically against the enemy horse charges and enemy foot soldiers. It is a weapon of the foot soldier, not a weapon for a soldier on horseback, and it would have been very cumbersome to carry and use on horseback under any circumstances, but even more so given that the knight would have already been carrying his long lance.

    The knight's long weapon would have been the lance and the charge, but this strategy looses a lot of it's effect when done by one knight alone. The massed charge of a hundred or more knights on heavy destriers with long lances, is something to curdle the blood of anyone on the receiving end of it. The thunder of the horses alone can strike fear in the enemy, and when that mass of horsemen crashes thru the ranks, it is an awesome event.

    But if a lone knight were to charge a lone enemy pirate, it would have little effect, especially if the area is at all wooded, giving the pirate a place to get under cover and avoid the attack altogether.

    Given the special circumstances under which the knight would use certain weaponry and strategies, I think it is a difficult comparison to make between he and the pirate. I suppose the only real comparison could be a close-combat battle, with bladed weaponry. Give the pirate his cutlass, and give the knight his longsword and his armor, and I'd give the win to the Knight. But once the other elements come into the picture, it just becomes a very odd matchup, and the technology of the pirate gives him the edge.
     
  3. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    I tend to agree with you. I got the feeling they were trying to test the era's, but when I think of a knight it's armor, sword and lance. Maybe a morningstar or flail.

    But halberds, bows, crossbows, etc, are support troops weapons to me.
     
  4. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Rolling this one around a bit in my head, the idea, not the episode itself.

    When I think of a Pirate, I think Jack Sparrow. Now, before you laugh, let me clarify.
    Sparrow wasn't stupid. He was written as an expert swordsman and marksman, with a keen sense of tactics, who knew when to fight and when to run away. Watching the movie fight scenes you see someone who uses terrain to his advantage, isn't afraid to cheat a little to get over on his opponent yet has some limits. Considering the character was based in part on actual pirates such as Jack Rachem and Bartholomew Roberts this isn't as far off as you'd think. The lack of armour allows for greater endurance, better visibility and more mobility, at the expense of a single hit disabling his combat effectiveness.

    When I think of a Knight, I think Arthur or Lancelot. I think of a high endurance expert at the long sword, wearing plate armour and carrying a traditional shield. I don't think of a hit and run specialist, but a slugger who is wearing 200 lbs of metal with a short combat effectiveness as a result. Limited visibility, limited flexibility and mobility. The trade off is that vulnerable areas are limited too, granting greater protection.
     
  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    It should have been Pirate vs Ninja with follow up episodes of Pirate-Ninja vs Pirate and Pirate-Ninja vs Ninja :D
     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure plate armor was as heavy and cumbersome as most of us think it was. Not sure about it, but it might merit some further research.

    Also, plenty of knights wore other armor, such as maile, prior to the development of plate. Gives more flexibility, but I've also heard that a full coat of maile could actually be heavier than some of the plate that was developed later...

    at any rate, the knight's actual makeup of equipment could vary quite a bit, depending on his era.
     
  7. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Longbow VS Platemaile
    [yt]D3997HZuWjk[/yt]

     
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  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I don’t know, I was thinking

    I’m thinking Pirates vs Knights a fight.. the knights would win easily :D
     
  9. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Lol.
     
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    interesting videos, and yes, that's about what I was thinking.

    Also interesting that he was riding a horse that was much smaller that one might expect needed by a knight in full gear. I suppose for a short ride, it's no big deal. If the man weighed 170, and his armor 80, that would put him in at 250. That's a big guy, but probably not terrible for a reasonable sized horse.

    The big chargers that knights rode would have been better to carry the weight over longer distances, and for the power generated in the massed charge. Not to mention the horse barding and extra weight of that sort.
     
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  11. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Mike Lodes does some excellent stuff IMO.
     
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

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    Plate armour weighs less than a modern full infantry kit. About 60 lbs, distributed around the body. It's entirely possible to do cartwheels in the stuff:



    True. Maille hangs a lot from the shoulders, making is actually more cumbersome than plate IIRC. Plate at its finest is a fully articulated, tempered steel exoskeleton, a marvel of engineering unequalled by any other archaic armour in terms of mobility vs. protection. It makes the wearer basically invulnerable to sword cuts and many primitive firearms and bows/crossbows.

    Also, remember that knights trained extensively in unarmoured combat. Unarmoured longsword fencing was considered the pinnacle of knightly martial arts. If he had to run someone down and fight him unarmoured, he'd be perfectly comfortable in doing so. Well, as comfortable as anyone can be knowing they're in an unarmoured sword fight. ;)

    Now, the danger of armour for a knight is NOT simple endurance. They were trained from the age of 7, and IIRC a knight had to be able to vault onto his horse in full armour without the use of stirrups. They were trained to armour they way we train to computer keyboards. ;) What the real danger is for a knight is heat exhaustion. Armour doesn't "breathe" well. :) In melee combat, a knight would fight with his visor UP to keep his visibility at maximum and to make sure he can breathe properly. If you can't breathe, you can't fight. Sprinting is a problem, but you can still run reasonably well in armour. Knightly fighting is anything BUT static. As it says in the manuals: "he who is still dies, he who moves will live".

    Indeed... the idea of "knight" encompasses a large variety of warriors.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
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  13. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    Their weapons and tactics evolved for completely different fights. Of course, that's true for pretty much all of these fantasy football matchups.

    The Gothic knight and his charger fighting in a longboat or on a crowded deck would be an exercise in humor more than hoplology. You don't need to penetrate the armor if you can give him a hard enough shove near the rail.
    The Pirate taking a heavy cavalry charge on an open plain wouldn't even be funny unless his guns were already charged and loaded or he was really handy with the full pike.

    There's also the question of equivalence. A knight with his arms, armor and horse could represent the entire economic surplus of a couple of villages. For the same price you could hire a lot of pirates.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  14. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    Thinking about non-projectile weapons for a moment consider what the pirate might have had besides the cutlass.

    There were the pike and the half-pike.
    [​IMG]

    There was the boarding axe.
    [​IMG]

    There was the boarding knife.
    [​IMG]
    (admittedly a whaler's tool, but often used in sea fights)

    All of these give the pirate a lot more effective options against a heavily armored man or one on horseback. Some of them are direct descendants of weapons designed to kill armored men.
     

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