School and Punishment inside the dojo

[KempoGuy06]

Very interesting story was told to me by one of the fellow students at my dojo. Apparently a young kid was acting out in class and the head instructor called him out on and said "you need to calm down and pay attention or I will have ask you to step out of class today". Fair enough, and well with in his rights to do so. Im sure it is very distracting to a kid acting crazy behind you while you are trying to teach other kids material. Well again the kid started to act up and the instructor finally stopped class and asked him to step off the training area. The kid did as he was asked but apparently the parent had a huge problem. He started yelling about how "Im paying you to teach my kid karate and not to act like a school teach and punish him" and so forth and so on. From what I was told my instructor handled it really well and explained his thoughts, but the parent was still not very happy and vowed to not come back

Now my question to the instructors out there:
- Has this happened to you?
- If yes, how did you handle the situation?
- If no, how would you handle it?
- Was my instructor right in asking the kid to leave?

This also raised an interesting question for me. Would it be right for an instructor to base his willingness to teach kids depending on how well they perform in school? Meaning if say little Timmy gets a bad grade on his report card but little Sarah gets really good grades, would it be ok if the instructor made little Timmy do drills while little Sarah gets to learn new stuff? Is an instructor allowed to get involved like this? Do any of you instructors out there have a program like this set up? Let me know.

B

 

[Sukerkin]

From what I read there, your sensei was exactly right.

I know that we've discussed quite recently about the nature of adopting the mores and traditions of a martial arts progenitor country and in part it is the case that discipline within a Japanese arts dojo should be kept to a high standard (probably higher than that normal for Western sensibilities).

However, that should be the case whatever the endeavour - someone being disruptive in any class has forfitted their priviledge to be there. If people try to hang on to an 'entitlement' attitude then they are welcome to retain it but they can retain it elsewhere.

 

[theletch1]

My first instructor (kempo) did this. Each child was supposed to bring in a copy of their report card for him to check over. It was more of a control thing with him. He wasn't consistent with what he did about the grades. It just depended on his mood and how he felt about the parents that day. This guy is worth a "Horror stories" thread all his own so I'll digress.

I have had a parent get upset with their child being disciplined while I was teaching. They approached our head instructor wanting to know why I was so hard on the kids. He explained that goofing off was very dangerous and that the kid could just as well wind up in the hospital as putting someone in the hospital by goofing off with during class. The parent didn't keep their kid in the school much longer. If I remember correctly this was one of those parents who put their kid into the MAs because they "needed discipline."

As for instructors getting involved to the extent to which you were discussing, no, I don't think it's any of their business. If good grades are a pre-condition for training then the parent should make it a pre-condition and enforce it. There is a certain level of distance that I feel an instructor should have from their students that really gets compromised in a situation like that.

 

[morph4me]

I have had kids sit out or get off the mat when they were acting up, and I've told one that she wasn't allowed back in the dojo unless she delivered a public apology to me and to the class.

As Jeff said, I'm hard on my students because goofing off is very dangerous and someone could wind up in the hospital or put someone else in the hospital by goofing off with during class.

I've only had one parent complain, because I told her daughter to remove her jewlery, and I told the parent that her daughter could remove her jewlery or she could remove her daughter.

I've heard of some dojo's that require good marks in school, and I've had instructors do it because the kid enjoyed the class and the parents asked him to, to help get the kid to buckle down in school. Personally, I think it's the parents job to worry about how the kids are doing in school, not the instructors, unless the parents ask for help, then you do what you can.

 

[Xue Sheng]

MY first instructor (jujitsu) asked kids to leave if they did not listen or acted up and no parents had a problem. Actually he was going easy on us.. We were kids... the adult class if they acted up or did not listen...well at the end of every class we spared and in the adult class sensei would generally spar the offender. But then this was WAAAAAAY back in the Stone Age so things were different then.

And yes I do believe your Sensei did the right thing

 

[Omar B]

Oh, my old Sensei was old school, he trained in Japan. He had the bambo cane and used to hit us right there with our parents in the room if we acted up. Truth be told it was a karate class held at a Catholic school so it's a pretty rigid environment. Either way, if my Sensei sees my behaviour as bad enough to be put out of class, given more pushups, smacked across the back with the cane I was cool with it. I always knew why I was punished and understood the lesson and so did my parents so they did not try to countermand him.

A Sensei like a football coach, basketball coach, gymnaastics instructor should be left to run the class as they see fit. Every time I caught a cane across the back it was because of my behaviour and not once did my parents object because I was wrong.

 

[Flying Crane]

but the parent was still not very happy and vowed to not come back

B

Two words: Good Riddance.

 

[IcemanSK]

I've seen things like this, but not in my school, yet. Parents need to understand that whether they pay $200 or $10 a month for their child to participate, if the child is not willing to act properly, they cannot participate.

A friend of mine teaches folks with learning, mental, emotional, as well as physical disabilities, in addition to anyone else in town. It's a mixed bag of folks in the intentionally so. Sometimes, some of the children with mental or emotional issues struggle in class & act out. It's rarely, if ever dangerous, just disruptive. He tries to appropriately get them back on track. He's usually successful, but sometimes it's not possible that day & the child needs to go be with their parents. He rarely has issues with the parents of those children. He often has problems with discipline of the kids of wealth parents who do have diagnosed "behavior" problems. Sadly, he's had to sever ties with more than one family who got upset that their child was asked to sit out while misbehaving in class.

 

[Nemesis]

I agree with Mr. Miyagi when he said " There's no such thing as a bad student, there are only bad instructors ".

But some times a good instructor has to make a stong point!
When, as a teacher, you start to lose respect in a class some times even good students turn bad! A good instructor should avoid that at all costs!
This is not an exact science so it is very subjective, a person should relay on his experience to make sure he doesn't make a too strong or a too weak position in this matter.

 

[jks9199]

I see nothing wrong with the discipline. If the parent wants their kid to learn karate -- the kid has to behave. Discipline is part of the lesson. And if the parent wants to storm out... so be it. I guess they didn't really want their kid to learn. (Reminds me of an incident with a peewee football league in my area last year. One of the parents provided most of the funds for the league and served as its president. He told a coach that his son HAD to play on every play of offense, and the coach pulled the kid out towards the end of one game so that another kid who hadn't gotten to play much got on the field. The kids didn't have a problem. The president fired the coach, and basically ended up taking his toys and going home... Pitiful example shown there... and here.)

As to school grades -- I've been teaching kids. If I heard that their grades were suffering, I'd have told them to bring them up before they could return to class. We never question a kid missing class for school work. So I don't see a problem -- IF you're teaching kids, and the rules are known up front.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I've been in the schools that require good grades before training and to some extent agree with that. However, the lessons learned from a classical art are many, & not simply "kickboxing" or "wrestling", i.e. the physical skills or the sport aspects. I've seen troubled kids get completely straightened out by a ol' school taskmaster Sensei.

As for that parent, I would have told them,"I AM teaching him/her Karate. If you don't value discipline or respect as worthy lessons, there's the door. Thank you for your time."

 

[ktaylor75]

My children had class at 5PM today. When the kids act up, the Sensei has them do push-ups...the kids hate push-ups. After the kids class, the Sensei runs a cardio kickboxing class at 6PM. My 4 children stay in the waiting area while I do that class. ...To make a long story short, I was doing bag work and could not see my son , but my Sensei could see him and caught him misbehaving and causing trouble with one of my other kids...my son did 25 push-ups outside of class this evening! lol

I have never undermined another adult that has disciplined my child. When I have had a problem with the way a person handled a situation, I spoke to that adult away from the presence of my child. My children, as a result, have never said to any adult, "You're not my mother, you can't tell me what to do (etc...)." I do not always have the best behaved kids on the block, but they do have a healthy respect for adults. The parents that do what that mother did, yelling at the instructor and storming off, IMO, are doing their child a huge disservice, and also setting themselves up to raise a spoiled brat of a child.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Today every Instructor/Sensi...has be be very responsible on how they handle the kid's/Parents. NO one wants a law suit or students out of control.
(this kid it may have not been his first time- a little out of control?)

First thing: Each Teacher needs to be calm, low tone voice...in control of himself.

"Treat others as you would want to be treated"

Those kids that do misbehave....We talk to them in a firm voice (to behave )...if No real good response...we ask them to sit on the side (this rarely happens)..NONE of the kids want to sit on the side..and they will behave. (for some reason the kids think sitting on the side is a terrible punishment..NOT for us? ..just so they do not bother the other students)

If a student does become a problem (rarely) We will talk to them after class let them know we will not allow any bad behavior...next step is to talk to the parents about this...last step...stop the training until they are ready to come back...THIS HAS NEVER HAPPEN TO US YET!

We always try to be fair, give the kids the benifit to correct themselves.
Remember the Sensi/Teachers need to be the proper role models!

There is always more than one way to solve any problems/situtions.
Each person has a good side...find it and use it.

Yelling, swearing, push-ups are punishment if use to punish....NOT the best method to solve the problems. ( for those who were brough up in this type of enviroment...from your parents/role models before you...YOU CAN CHANGE.... everyone can improve themselves to be an EXCELLANT ROLE MODEL.

Try other methods...more mature thinking..kind and humble way to solve this!

Look around....the greatest leaders of the world...do not need to yell or swear, or hit someone. They lead with compassion!

Aloha, (Kindness always works better...Please be kind enough to give me twenty push-up if you do not understand the message?)

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I see no problem with it.

Because at this point that student is not only wasting HIS time he's wasting the rest of the class's time too.

 

[Kacey]

I have no problem disciplining students of any age in my class, and I think your instructor handled it well - if you cannot behave appropriately, you lose the option of being in class. Just like any other activity the parent or participant pays for, there are rules - if you don't behave, you're out.

 

[ChingChuan]

Isn't it a pity that it is necessary at all to discipline? Children should realize the value of what's taught to them - not everyone is able to learn the same and they are starting quite early, which gives them a kind of advantage... And still some act up during class... How strange.


But I agree with all the people that posted before me - the instructor was right in disciplining the child.

Regarding schoolwork, on one hand I think that an instructor should be responsible for his students, so if they were failing to do their schoolwork to attend training, I think he should intervene. However, what if you're just not good at learning and training is the only thing you do well? (or, in other words, when it's not a case of not studying enough) In such a case, I don't think that the instructor should do anything because, well, the problem isn't training-related, then, so he shouldn't be involved in such situations. (unless the instructor is a teacher ihmself and can help the student ort something, but I think it's cruel to deny a child training only because he/she has a learning disability or something).
So, to sum it up: an instructor should be sensitive to what causes the possible low grades and only intervene if it's training-related.

 

[MJS]

Very interesting story was told to me by one of the fellow students at my dojo. Apparently a young kid was acting out in class and the head instructor called him out on and said "you need to calm down and pay attention or I will have ask you to step out of class today". Fair enough, and well with in his rights to do so. Im sure it is very distracting to a kid acting crazy behind you while you are trying to teach other kids material. Well again the kid started to act up and the instructor finally stopped class and asked him to step off the training area. The kid did as he was asked but apparently the parent had a huge problem. He started yelling about how "Im paying you to teach my kid karate and not to act like a school teach and punish him" and so forth and so on. From what I was told my instructor handled it really well and explained his thoughts, but the parent was still not very happy and vowed to not come back

Now my question to the instructors out there:
- Has this happened to you?
- If yes, how did you handle the situation?
- If no, how would you handle it?
- Was my instructor right in asking the kid to leave?

This also raised an interesting question for me. Would it be right for an instructor to base his willingness to teach kids depending on how well they perform in school? Meaning if say little Timmy gets a bad grade on his report card but little Sarah gets really good grades, would it be ok if the instructor made little Timmy do drills while little Sarah gets to learn new stuff? Is an instructor allowed to get involved like this? Do any of you instructors out there have a program like this set up? Let me know.

B

Has this happened to me? Yes, many times.

How did I handle it? I'd usually have the person sit off to the side for a few. I'd then ask them if they were ready to join the class again. Most of the time, that short break was enough to get their attention. There were times when I'd have to repeat the process. If the parent said anything to me, I'd explain that the behavior their child was showing, was not acceptable, nor would it be acceptable in a class I was teaching. I explained that the disruption was taking away from the others who were not fooling around. That was usually good enough and took care of the issue. If I encountered more problems from the parent, I'd direct them to the owner/head inst. of the school. He had no issue with telling someone to leave and not return if they could not adhere to the school rules.

Was your inst. right in doing what he did? Yes, 100%

 

[Cirdan]

Has this happened to me? Yes, many times.

How did I handle it? I'd usually have the person sit off to the side for a few. I'd then ask them if they were ready to join the class again. Most of the time, that short break was enough to get their attention. There were times when I'd have to repeat the process. If the parent said anything to me, I'd explain that the behavior their child was showing, was not acceptable, nor would it be acceptable in a class I was teaching. I explained that the disruption was taking away from the others who were not fooling around. That was usually good enough and took care of the issue. If I encountered more problems from the parent, I'd direct them to the owner/head inst. of the school. He had no issue with telling someone to leave and not return if they could not adhere to the school rules.

Was your inst. right in doing what he did? Yes, 100%

This is excatly how we handle things too. In some cases of we will tell the student they have to leave and can`t come back for a week or two. More often than not this causes them to shape up. Of course some will leave but as Flying Crane put it.. Good Riddance! People should realize that even of you pay for your lessons, learning quality MA is a privilege.

 

[Tez3]

Just last night we had sit a child out as he was disrupting the class, he does it quite a bit. The parents understand and I think they all realise it is actually a waste of their money if their children mess around in class. We have an unusual situation in that many of the fathers go away (mothers too but then the children usually go off to stay with grandparents) and the children tend to play up mostly at home so many of the mothers ask my chief instructor if he will have a quiet word with them. We usually tend to do more 'physical' stuff with them then, more bag work,grappling etc. The male fighters come in (most of them are soldiers too) and let the kids 'beat' them up. Most kids miss the physical interaction with their dads and of course while the younger ones just miss their dads the older ones know where they have gone ( Iraq and Afghanistan) and worry an awful lot. We do it in a controlled and as 'normal' way as possible to keep things safe but also so the children don't think anything is different if you see what I mean? I think though if we weren't a Garriison club we probably would only be concerned about the club discipline, I'm not sure if how they behaved in school would be relevant to us as long as they behaved in class. If they misbehaved in class they certainly would be asked to sit out and it would be explained to their parents why, I'm afraid if the parents then didn't like it they could walk!

 

[KempoGuy06]

wow thanks for the responses everyone, that was pretty good advice...of course it is MT

B