Sayoc Kali

[Sun_Helmet]

BFB:
The main reason of the conquer was the framentation of the country in little kingdoms with a lot of internal problems and the muslim were a united imperium(califato Omeya) with a higher culture (the muslins enter in Spain in a really dark age).

ME:
Fragmentation is one of the main common strategies of war according to Alexander the Great, Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Genghis Khan and the Romans. That wasn't my point.
My point was that Moors and Spanish tribes fought with BLADED weapons in a time when firearms did NOT exist. Spain divided or not, lost and were defeated by the Moors in battles that had NO firearms.

This is a totally different scenario than what happened in the Philippines. The Philippines as you may or may not know was also fragmentated like Spain was, and the CONQUESTA documents stated in frank terms how to exploit that fragmentation. But Spain used FIREARMS and the pike.

So taking fragmentation out of the discussion, the main fighting weapons during the Moors conquest of Spain were NOT firearms but Bladed weapons.

The main fighting weapons used in the Spanish conquesta of the Philippines were FIREARMS/pikes.

Both scenarios had fragmentation, but ALL wars depend on fragmentation or broken alliances. I'm focusing on the weapons used. Spanish soldiers ADMIT to reliance of the firearm to decide the outcome of battle in the Philippines.
That was NOT the case when the Moors fought the Spanish.

Thus, Spain had to adapt to their enemy- the Moors to defeat them. They had to learn the Moors methods of fighting. Which means Spain's evolvement in the sword was influenced by their conquerors the Moors.

The Moors also influenced the Filipinos, so much so that Spanish soldiers stated Filipinos fought like Moors or Turks.
Hopefully this clears it up.

BFB:
(I understand it from your words, sorry like I said in my other post my english is not very good, I would like to see you trying to expres yourself in my language).

Me:
great.
By the way, You NEVER stated what your native language was... if it is so complex it must be:
Tagalog



--Rafael--
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[OULobo]

To return a thread to topic
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Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-OULobo
-MT Moderator-
====================

While I've already learned quite a bit about Spanish history, I think it would be better suited in it's own thread.

 

[Sun_Helmet]

<<I had a question. Where did the karambit work in the Sayoc system come from? It is the only system I have seen that uses it other than Indo. silat and so. Filipino silat. I noticed that guru Dionaldo was the first to promote it in the system and he his producing the weapon now too. Did he bring it to the system and if so where did he get it from?>>

Tuhon Ray was not the first to promote the Karambit in the Sayoc system, many of the instructors were already doing karambit work such as Tuhon Tom Kier and of course I first saw karambit work back in '83 with Tuhon Chris Sayoc. However, the karambit taught today via Tuhon Ray uses the Sayoc Kali template methods which organizes the various elements so that they coincide more uniformly with the curriculum taught in Sayoc Kali.

Check out the Karambit DVD for more info and an example of the Sayoc Kali template instruction at work. You'll also see the differences with a segment by Guro Ken Pannell of Indonesian style karambit work.

Btw, Filipinos have weapons shaped liked karambits but were not called karambits. Tuhon Ray D. also includes his silat material in his karambit work.


--Rafael--
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[OULobo]

<<I had a question. Where did the karambit work in the Sayoc system come from? It is the only system I have seen that uses it other than Indo. silat and so. Filipino silat. I noticed that guru Dionaldo was the first to promote it in the system and he his producing the weapon now too. Did he bring it to the system and if so where did he get it from?>>

Tuhon Ray was not the first to promote the Karambit in the Sayoc system, many of the instructors were already doing karambit work such as Tuhon Tom Kier and of course I first saw karambit work back in '83 with Tuhon Chris Sayoc. However, the karambit taught today via Tuhon Ray uses the Sayoc Kali template methods which organizes the various elements so that they coincide more uniformly with the curriculum taught in Sayoc Kali.

Check out the Karambit DVD for more info and an example of the Sayoc Kali template instruction at work. You'll also see the differences with a segment by Guro Ken Pannell of Indonesian style karambit work.

Btw, Filipinos have weapons shaped liked karambits but were not called karambits. Tuhon Ray D. also includes his silat material in his karambit work.


--Rafael--
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Cool, thanks for the info. I have batted around the idea of guru Ray's DVD for a while, but I usually don't buy videos. Mabey I will just for teh visuals and for eh comparison work. I'm holding out for actually getting a chance to get down there and train for a little while or at least a seminar.

 

[Littledragon]

I had some questions about this art like is it relly all bladed weapons? what are the applications of blade on blade and blade on empty hand? and finaly were did Sayoc Kali originate from? Thank you. :asian:

I did some research for you:

Sayoc Kali is but one of the many facets of the Sayoc Fighting System. As currently taught by the 5th generation inheritor of Sayoc Kali, Tuhon Chris Sayoc emphasizes that the Sayoc Kali system emphasizes the correct and effective usage of the blade. Sayoc Kali includes knowledge of how to use a single knife, with a progression to the use of multiple blades, in conjunction with empty-hands training.
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Included in these categories of training are proper handling or blade edge discipline, drawing the blades, vital target discrimination, defense against and the practice of disarms, projectiles and finger-touch methodology used in conjunction with knife work. Students are also taught critical injury management.
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The Sayoc system has several categories of training. The training is in three parts. Sayoc Kali, the first part that is taught is in the offensive and contains the basic teaching formula. We call this person the “Feeder.” This is started in single blade. Sayoc Silak, the second part of the training is in the counter offensive and contains the learning formula. We call this person the “Receiver” and this is started in the empty hands. Once the receiver’s basics are established and the skills are equal to the feeder’s basics and in order to complete the training system, the third phase of training is introduced.
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Sayoc Bakal compliments both Sayoc Kali and Sayoc Silak. It works as a complete system with students trained in either Sayoc Kali or Sayoc Silak. The goal, however, is to have training in this order Sayoc Kali, followed by Sayoc Silak, and then on to Sayoc Bakal. These three systems together complete the Sayoc System of Edged Weapons Dynamics. The 2 main categories are single blade and multiple blades:
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1. Feeder, single blade -- Receiver, empty hands​
2. Feeder, multiple blades -- Receiver, multiple blades​

In the past, the Sayoc family developed sub-systems to adapt to mainstream martial arts to be taught in our first public martial arts school in Queens, New York that was opened in 1972. The categories taught were many as one of our primary objectives was to inform and educate the public. Though, we no longer teach these methods, we now use them as examples and reference. These were the categories and order in which they were taught from 1972 through 1982
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1. single stick (28”-32”)​
2. empty hands (foot works, body mechanics)​
3. double stick (24”-32”)​
4. stick and dagger​
5. dagger (single blade-multiple blades)​
6. tabak-toyok (single/double)​
7. pana (projectile in assorted sizes)​
8. long stick (36”-50”)​
9. whip (4’-12’) (single/double)​
10. staff/spear​
11. short stick (18”-24”)/tabak-maliit (single/double)​
12. shield and stick​

The rest at:http://sayoc.com/article_info.php?articles_id=3&osCsid=82af822701c1b92861775be9e0fee022
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