Sanchin kata for slicing and dicing

[Flying Crane]

Do you mean the Uechi Ryu reverse breathing or the other sort?

In Uechi Ryu's version of Sanchin most of the body's muscles are kept in severe tension. The diaphragm is contracted. The abdominal muscles are fully engaged. The breath is held during exertion and released quickly on recovery. Inhalation occurs upon resetting the muscular tension.

The other sorts of reverse breathing with which I am familiar involve breathing in through the mouth and out through the nose as well compressing the abdomen during inhalation and expanding it during exhalation. I've never practiced that sort very much.

I guess I wanted to get a description of the dangerous method, to see if I ever use that in any of my forms. I do some tension in sil nim tao form in Wing Chun, and fu hok in Hung Gar, but it doesn't sound like I am doing the breathing as you describe.

Generally, I use tension on the movements which can be either extending or contracting movements, and the strikes, but I am exhaling thru the entire movement, in time with the duration of the movement which can be slow. At the end of the movement I relax and exhale any remainder, and then inhale. Then, set the dynamic tension for the next movement and slowly exhale thru the movement again. This sounds like it is different from the method you described above. Would you agree?

It sounds like the difference is in actually holding the breath, which I do not do.

I have also heard that Goju and Hung Gar people tend to die at an early age due to heart disease. Of course there are always exceptions: Hung Gar master Lam Jo in Hong Kong lived into his mid 90s, and was still fierce up to the end. I'm not entirely sure he has passed away yet, he might still be alive.

 

[Victor Smith]

Breathing hard.

I'm afraid it's another old tale that hard Goju-style sanchin will destroy your health. As most old tales it has its origins from several points.

1. Okinawans are among the oldest lived people on earth, so if you practice karate and die before your 90's, it must have been karate's fault.
2. Normal rivalry between people, always looking to criticize.

First if this is true, where is evidence that doing hard Sanchin had immediate physiological bad results. Who are the peoples who've died early becuase they practiced that way? What legitimate 'vetted' medical evidence exists for any of these claims.

There are many senior Goju masters who've lived very long lives even though they practiced Sanchin.

There are always other factors to consider. WWII caused great devistation about 1/2 of Okinawan died. There was starvation, there were horrible physical living conditions for many years. There were the psychological effects of being a survivor, of being conquered again, of losing so many famili members and friends. All of which may have legitmately impacted anyones life span too.

Folks, use a little logic when you hear and see these old tales being repeated.

Goju style Sanchin follows one level of tension.
Tou'on Ryu Sanchin (which came from the same source, Hiagonna Kanryo) uses a much softer breathing and power formula.
Uechi style Sanchin is not as tense as Goju's, and the breathing is more natural.

But there is so much variation between any one of the groups, no one description is really more than just generally descriptive.

My own personal choice was based on just one issue, I wanted to use Sanchin itself to drop people, after listening for years that Sanchin was just a basic kata. While I'm not unique, there are not many others who'e made the same choice.

Definitions are always difficult. Reverse Breathing has a number of different answers. One is instead of exhaling on striking, instead always 100% of the time inhale while striking. That is not the only answer, it does have it's internal logic for it's practice and you absolutely cannot do it on your own, it takes a ton of practice under a good instructor.

Myself I see value in both regular and 'reverse' breathing. It depends on the technique and more importantly how one defines a kata sequence.

 

[tellner]

I'm afraid the dangers are real. It's not just rival karate politics. Abdominal compression raises blood pressure. Abdominal compression combined with holding your breath during exertion raises it more. You can get dangerous spikes in BP this way. We know it can lead to micro-hemorrhages in the brain and add an unhealthy load to the circulatory system.

In other words, it's bad for you. We have good objective evidence from modern science.

The sort of thing that Flying Crane is talking about is not nearly as bad. If it's done in reasonable doses it's probably not a danger to a healthy person. The other stuff? Not so good. And it's a core practice of Uechi Ryu. I'm glad they changed the way they did the form.

 

[Victor Smith]

Tellner, I've had a surgeon in my program for many years with a strong Goju background (15 years training), he never found creedance that Sanchin would hurt you. Again I would only ask for significent medical evidence of Sanchin causing harm and then I'd let Doc review it. He made it clear that conversation is a very poor method to evaluate medical topics and I concur at that.

Of course hard sanchin does have a physiological result, but it would take very long term sustained training I'm sure to even register an effect. In my experience even those schools I've seen that train in Sanchin rarely begin to use it to that level. But my experience does not constitute an average, just what I've seen.

Goju's source came from Hiagonna Kanryo who trained in China in the 1800's. From him came the Goju Ryu version and the Tou'on Ryu version.

Uechi's source also came from China in the late 1800's, but it is likely not the same source as Hiagonna's, hence the many differences.

Sanchin or 3 battles is found in many Chinese systems, is not the same from system to system and it is not known if any of the Chinese sanchin forms seen today were the progenetors of Hiagonna's training.

 

[chinto]

Tellner, I've had a surgeon in my program for many years with a strong Goju background (15 years training), he never found creedance that Sanchin would hurt you. Again I would only ask for significent medical evidence of Sanchin causing harm and then I'd let Doc review it. He made it clear that conversation is a very poor method to evaluate medical topics and I concur at that.

Of course hard sanchin does have a physiological result, but it would take very long term sustained training I'm sure to even register an effect. In my experience even those schools I've seen that train in Sanchin rarely begin to use it to that level. But my experience does not constitute an average, just what I've seen.

Goju's source came from Hiagonna Kanryo who trained in China in the 1800's. From him came the Goju Ryu version and the Tou'on Ryu version.

Uechi's source also came from China in the late 1800's, but it is likely not the same source as Hiagonna's, hence the many differences.

Sanchin or 3 battles is found in many Chinese systems, is not the same from system to system and it is not known if any of the Chinese sanchin forms seen today were the progenetors of Hiagonna's training.

I hate to say it but sustained training hard at sanchin ( as in every day) is not healthy for people who are midle aged .. or even younger.. can couse high blood pressure and things.
but like any thing else in moderation provably not a problem.
I know that meany of the old senseis on Okinawa sugest that older practioners not do the full tensioning hard every day.

 

[tellner]

Victor, I know you like your style. I'm not attacking it. But the things we are describing are not brain surgery. They are basic modern medicine.

We know that this stuff raises blood pressure while you're doing it. Any first year medical student or grad student in biology/physiology can explain how and why with diagrams.

We know that transient spikes in blood pressure can have bad effects on the circulatory system especially but not limited to the small cerebral and cardiac vessels.

We also know that the effects tend to be cumulative.

At the other end so to speak it's beyond any sort of question that severe abdominal compression can contribute to hemorrhoid's.

This sort of thing has been such common knowledge in sports like weight lifting that it does not even need to be mentioned.

Sanchin as done by Uechi Ryu practitioners back in the day has all of these characteristics. The "old Uechi teacher" I referred to earlier was Frank Gorman. 100% dead center traditional Uechi Ryu from a very long time ago.

If basic Western science does not convince you, perhaps the voice of long experience intimately involved in the subject matter will. As you recall I said that he confirmed what I had suspected and Guru Brandt Bollers had said. He and other senior practitioners noticed that there was a significant increase in the rate of vascular illnesses and injuries among long term practitioners. That is why he and many others modified their training.

A young person with elastic blood vessels would certainly be at less risk than a middle aged or older player, especially one with any sort of hypertension. But that doesn't mean the risk is not there and that it will not manifest later in life.

We have science, anecdote and the advice of respected stylists with long experience. What more do you need? What would you consider an acceptable standard of evidence.

 

[tellner]

There are some very deep questions here about what kata are and their proper use. I haven't done Karate in a long time, but the use of patterned movement in training works the same for humans everywhere.

At one level it's just waving your arms and legs around. You do it because you're told to. It doesn't have anything to do with the way you fight. It might as well be marching band for all the good it's doing you. Unfortunately, that's the level that most schools teach at. You get fed some malarkey about how that is the "Art" portion of the program or "It contains all the self defense you'll ever need if you just do it a hundred thousand more times" or some such. What this usually means is that the teacher doesn't have the faintest idea how to use the kata, but that was what he was taught. So by gum he'll keep the Flame alive by passing it along.

The surest sign that you're dealing with someone at that level of understanding is that his fighting bears little or no relation to the structured movement exercises of the style.

You're obviously well beyond that.

Another way to look at it is as a collection of techniques to be used in different situations. This move is supposed to be applied that way. This sequence represents someone blocking a punch, doing a wristlock, pulling the opponent down, turning and throwing him and kicking him in the face when he tries to stand up. [That one is actually straight out of the Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin]

Sometimes a kata is designed for exactly that purpose. Not always.

There's a closely related phase of using kata in training. You are trying to get the way you fight in line with the curriculum. So you research the forms heavily to see what you can extract from them. Your teacher pulls applications out, and you learn what the moves can do.

At other points along the line you come up with things. Or you see new stuff. After you pick yourself up off the floor and your eyes start tracking again you say "I need to remember this. It reminds me a lot of the Mutual Affection movement in Purple Dinosaur Expresses Universal Love." It becomes as much a destination for knowledge as a source. That's an awkward way of putting it. If that doesn't work try "You start to put stuff into the form so that you can organize what you know and access it quickly."

Another way to look at it is as a way of learning proper movement and body mechanics.

When you're at a considerably higher level you have more technique than you'll ever use, reams of information and good body mechanics. The form becomes a way of tying it all together. This is often the point where it starts getting simpler. You know the stuff. It's internalized enough so that you don't need constant reminders, just something to reference to. The form really does contain everything you know, so practicing it is a shorthand way of keeping everything in good working order.

Eventually if you've stuck with it and done thirty hard years of training instead of going through the first year thirty times the forms become superfluous.

Up in these last couple levels where the air is thinner a lot of the complicated explicit movements are a waste of time. If the forms are well designed you have a manageable set of root movements and fundamental body mechanics which stand for or can generate technique out the wazoo.

I think that's why the couple of books I have (and the teacher I had) say Sanchin is karate for the master. It's entirely root movements from which you can derive or remember almost everything else. That's why there's not a lot there that looks like technique. It isn't an explicit catalog of "He does this, you do that." It's the basis of the system or how you do karate. But that only has meaning if you've made the long trek through the rest of the process.

 

[Flying Crane]

tellner: thank you for several very interesting posts.

 

[Victor Smith]

Tellner,

Sanchin, just to take Goju Sanchin as an example, covers a very wide range of practices, some harder, some softer and as in most martial discussions is not readily categorized as what the training is.

Evaluating the effects of Sanchin isn’t brain surgery, but it is still more than making assumptions of first year medical students or grad students too. That Sanchin training will have an effect long term on the circulatory system, etc. takes more than just assumptions.

To make an informed decision about any detrimental effects to hard Goju Sanchin practice, without qualified medical research on the issue, there are a number of questions that should be answered first, IMO.

1. Who were the individuals that had their lives shortened because of Sanchin practice? Only by looking at the case histories involved can we determine if there were other factors that might have been the cause too.
2. Who were the individuals that had those hemorrhoids you mentioned that Sanchin was the cause?
3. What was the level of Sanchin practice involved? How frequent, how long in duration, what other physical practices did the individual engage in that might be contributing factors both in karate as well as their lives?
4. Looking at the individual case histories, there are factors such as family traits, etc. that must also be involved.

I’ve associated with Goju stylists for over 30 years who have not evidenced your results. Likewise there are Seniors on Okinawa practicing Goju into their 90’s.

Without such information generalizations about the result of Sanchin training are but conversational logic. If the proof is there I’m not trying to dispute it, I just haven’t seen anything that resembles logical proof to make an assessment about Sanchin training.

It’s not that Western Science can’t convince me, after all I have a Surgeon among my students, it’s just that the science hasn’t been applied to study the way scientific study must take place.

I practice Sanchin differently than we’re discussing. This topic is not a result of my own practice or teachings.

I’ve also read George Mattson talk about Uechi from both a hard and a soft training perspective. Since Mattson Sensei was one of the earliest Uechi Instructors in the states, he claims the very hard Uechi he originally practices was incorrect and while he has worked for some time to soften the practice, there are many who have not come to his understanding.

Of course Sanchin touces on the use of kata. My personal take is Sanchin is to be used.

On the whole I see the use Kata as a combined tool house of technique, open to variable definition as to what a technique within a kata is. I also see kata as a tool to develop the energy in it’s technique execution, the more precise you can execute the greater physical energy you can place within those techniques (also open to variable definition as to what a technique within a kata is).

Then kata is combined with application study, from the early ones to the the more advanced applications to understand the potential. Next the study moves from planned attack to planned attack with variable responses to unplanned attack and unplanned defense with no limitation on techniques, except respect to not use the technique to destroy the other.

All of which is open ended because learning how to bind those developing energies into the applications causes never ending change.

Multiply all of the above by the system of training you actually follow and you’re talking decades of work.

None of which is really necessary, but the effective results of that study provide a lifetime of study into some of karate’s aspects.

 

[tellner]

Therefore, I'll be glad to talk with you about the technical qualities of kata or combat. I will not say a single other word about matters of physiology or science absent some indication that we have anything to talk about.

You are defending what you see as an attack on the fundamental principles and practices of your style. I'm not attacking it or you.

Now, as to your analysis of the kata...

You've definitely spent a lot of time drawing stuff out of it. It's a very worthwhile thing and a great accomplishment. From my perspective it's pretty clear that Sanchin - at least the version I've learned - is not a collection of techniques and applications. It's a fundamental technical kata embodying principles, body mechanics and root movements. That does not relegate it to some sort of second-class status because it's "basic". Rather, it elevates it to the level of something that only really comes into its own when you have put in time and internalized the system.

 

[Victor Smith]

Tellner,

No problems at my end either.

The material I shared on Sanchin is about 8 or 9 years old in where I was looking at things at that time. I feel it is a useful way to begin to look at one aspect of kata application potential study.

I would suggest there is much more that can only be expressed over personal sharing during training. Working on the underlying principles behind the techniques application potential would be one aspect.

I only hope this inspires some work on those who are interested. It takes much more than words to get to the simple starting point that each aspect of a kata utilized will be able to drop anyone.

That's a larger journey.

Or the intersection of the arts finding everything in a kata works too. Of course for that I normally work on Chinto, which has almost the complete aikido vocabulary and a ton of the Indonsian tjimande I trained in a bit, as well as tai chi's da lu too.

But that's a topic for another day...

 

[tellner]

Definitely. Personal communication and seeing and feeling it is much better. I've been through a number or teachers with a number of ways of using forms (whatever you want to call them). In retrospect most of them didn't have a clue as to how kata can be used in training. Your work is a huge step in the right direction. IT would be nice to meet some day and pursue some of these ideas a little further.

 

[chinto]

Tellner,

No problems at my end either.

The material I shared on Sanchin is about 8 or 9 years old in where I was looking at things at that time. I feel it is a useful way to begin to look at one aspect of kata application potential study.

I would suggest there is much more that can only be expressed over personal sharing during training. Working on the underlying principles behind the techniques application potential would be one aspect.

I only hope this inspires some work on those who are interested. It takes much more than words to get to the simple starting point that each aspect of a kata utilized will be able to drop anyone.

That's a larger journey.

Or the intersection of the arts finding everything in a kata works too. Of course for that I normally work on Chinto, which has almost the complete aikido vocabulary and a ton of the Indonsian tjimande I trained in a bit, as well as tai chi's da lu too.

But that's a topic for another day...

once again I guess my responce would be that like any thing else, moderation is a good thing. the training that hard tensioning and 'iron body training' that is part of sanchin kata in meany styles is not a bad thing in moderation. Age, health, and other things are a factor for any practioner to consider.
The ability to take a hit as part of an attack is a factor in any fight. Please remember that on Okinawa at least entill after WWII the winner of any fight on the street was considerd the one still alive! I would prepose the hypothisis that regardless if you are on the streets of naha, or shuri, or portland oregon, or san francisco, or new york new york, or london england that if a man attacks you on the street the same criteria is not unreasonable! Survival is the core of karate regardless of style. ( well at least as far as I am concerned)
That being said, moderation is a good thing in almost anything you can name except in the mist of combat its self! so that would be a good thing to do in that regard, use moderation. So if you are just begaining, or some one who has 10 years training: I would sugest that you consult your Sensei and consider your Health and age in how you train. Like any thing else things change.

 

[tellner]

Excellent advice, Chinto.

Doing hard Sanchin training wasn't an issue when I was 17. A quarter century later I'm reaching the age where my parents' gift of hypertension has kicked in. I'd have to be a lot more careful.

Being able to take a hit is definitely important. No matter how good you are one really solid punch at the right time and in the right place can ruin your day. My Shaykh said "When I was young I got into fights. I found that it was not the one who was willing to hurt the other one more who won. It was the one who was ready to be hurt more."

 

[punisher73]

Dynamic tension as done in sanchin does no more to stress the heart and blood pressure as hard exercise such as weightlifting when it is done correctly. The part that IS dangerous is when you hold the breath while exerting it's called the valsalva manuever (sp?) and it will cause you to pass out. Weightlifters do this and have died while holding their breath during a heavy lift and then passing out and having the bar kill them.

Here is an article where sanchin is medically tested as compared to an activity like weightlifting

http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html

 

[tellner]

It's precisely that breath-holding which is the issue. And I'm glad that it's been largely abandoned.

 

[JWLuiza]

Victor,

Quick Note: Sanchin does translate as three battles and the white crane version is related to the sanchin that was brought over into Okinawa... much like humans and apes have a common ancestor... (I'll let you decide which sanchin has opposable thumbs).

Wikipedia's article is pretty well documented. There is another thread where the various versions of sanchin are all performed... Two okinawan and two white crane versions all side by side.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54286



best,

John

 

[Flying Crane]

Victor,

Quick Note: Sanchin does translate as three battles and the white crane version is related to the sanchin that was brought over into Okinawa... much like humans and apes have a common ancestor... (I'll let you decide which sanchin has opposable thumbs).

Wikipedia's article is pretty well documented. There is another thread where the various versions of sanchin are all performed... Two okinawan and two white crane versions all side by side.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54286



best,

John

I wanted to see that as well, but the video attachment doesn't seem to work anymore.

 

[Victor Smith]

John,

While I understand your points, and yes I've seen the 4 on one video, it depends on where you're standing. One person can see them and see the similarities, another will watch them and see the differences (which I guess is where I am).

Without outstanding documentation and/or seeing a Chinese version which really parallels what Okinawa's is I prefer to to remain a 'Doubting Thomas' on the issue.

For one thing I don't think to do good Sanchin of any type of practice you have to have anything to do with the White Crane. If you do and it helps you put on your hat, great to you too.

For example while I've been doing Isshinryu for 35 years I've also been doing Yang Tai Chi Chaun for 30 years. Yes the Yang does re-inforce my personal Isshinryu, but most of my students do not practice Tai Chi and their Isshinryu is fine on it's own, as are others who don't to tai chi too.

Until the day I see stronger proof I'll remain a skeptic, BUT in no case should my choices influcence anyone from making their own decisions.

It's what makes the world an interesting place after all.

PS. While the historical discussion is interesting what really fuels my fires is how to apply technique. Consider I am of the opinion Sanchin is a superior way to enter someone who boxes. Now can you figure out why I state that, from a tacitical point of view. There's an interesting topic.

 

[cstanley]

There are things that Sanchin teaches that are more important than any bunkai you may reach for or try to assign to the kata. Stance, toes and feet gripping the floor, hip position and movement, control of hara, breath control, and other things are its primary purpose. We do not do Sanchin, Tensho, and Seisan kata with the heavy tension breathing that many kai use. It is audible, but much lighter. The inhale is faster, as is the exhale. The hara is pushed forward more quickly. There is some rising and sinking, but not over done. Those ryu that do not practice Sanchin get the same principles from Naihanchi.

The dynamic tension argument is an old one. One of my senior students is a physician and he does not think the heavy tension is that good for you. We have never done it that way, so it doesn't matter. But, it is not necessary to do Sanchin that way to get the benefits.