Sakki test with live blade

ElfTengu

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This is all good, however it was said that the Genbukan test was done on at least one occasion with no sakki being emitted by your Soke.

So is it a test of feeling the intention of another human being, or a simple gut feeling of impending danger (as per the scaffold pole and motorcycling analogies), or a combination of both, or something altogether different and difficult to explain in words?

Not that gut feeling is unkown to the Japanese mindset, it is literally known as Haragei from which I am sure you can spot the reference to the gut or belly.

Now haragei extends beyond a feeling of impending danger, and beyond the perception of another human being's malicious/murderous intent, it is also about perceving martial ability in another person, regardless of whether they are a potential friend or enemy. I believe Hatsumi Soke referred to it with a example from samurai comic books where two characters say something along the lines of "There is something about you", a martial je ne sais quoi if you like.

Most of us can spot dangerous people in a crowd, it is ususally not rocket science because such people often want to appear dangerous because they can then do as they like with little resistance due to the fear of those who are acknowledging their Alpha-male persona exhibition.

But many people without knowing it can also exude a quiet confidence, intentionally or unintentionally, which is almost as perceptible as the chest thumping of the aforementioned individual. And because many of the unpleasant characters in society are cowards at heart they will often try to gauge in advance the likelihood of their intended victim putting up a fight. In which case they will either move onto another target or excalate their plan of attack into use of knives, guns or recruit other wolves for strength in numbers.

Ninpo practitioners should not exude anything really, but I also doubt if we would put out the obvious victim-waves of an injured fish to be picked up by any predators in the vicinity. It is a balance of not looking like a victim and not looking like a threat.

Another point is how often I am surprised to find out that someone is a martial arts yudansha, without picking up on anything myself, and probably without conscious effort on their part to conceal it, so there is probably an aspect of ego to this. If you think you are great, you will have a harder time trying to keep a low profile.
 

Troy Wideman

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Hello ElfTengu,

There is a differnence between the 7th dan test and the 8th dan test. However, I will not attempt to explain it, first off I am not at that level yet and I would only be guessing at how it works. I guess after I pass the test I will be able to tell you more :).
I can only comment truly on the things I have ranked in and passed. I am looking forward to the test though.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Hi Troy I truthfully enjoy your posts but a few things stuck out at me.

It would be interesting to see, how many people would actually take the test if the Bujinkan used a real sword for the test. People come up and take the test without a thought when they have nothing to loose:).

I imagine if Soke decides to administer it this way and.... may already have that several people may get the chance.

I did not say that no one has failed the test. I am sure that sensei has the skill to stop a killing cut but the threat of the possibility of something happening is very real. If you have witnessed a Genbukan Sakki test, the cut is right to the floor with no holding back.

I have also observed multiple Bujinkan test with cuts to the floor. (which is not really important by the way)

I wish everyone on this board luck in their training no matter what art or organization and that if they are training in a Ninpo art, when you take the test, sit with your back straight and loose all thought. Accept the cut and trust in your teacher, hopefully this will help you to pass. You will not have the gates of heaven open up, only the feeling of "Get the hell out of the way".

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Absolutely wish you the best of luck as well!
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......Now as to people who have been there and done that in a field requiring awareness and the ability to feel or have a gut check so to speak. (or also civilians who have been in the moment) There are simply lots of people out there that have that kind of experience. That is real world, real time, experience that is well very relevant to life saving skills.
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Troy Wideman

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Hi Brian,

Thank you, glad you enjoy them. I really don't post to much. The only reason why I posted on this forum was to clear up the matter about the shihan and their test. I was also impressed with the way people handled themselves, polite and courteous even though we might not agree with each others opinions.
To your first questions, yes that might be the way he wishes to administer the test and it is really not my place to comment on the bujinkan anymore because I am no longer a member. I did not mean any disrespect. I actually used to be a 3rd dan under Doron Navon, however, that is in the past, way back in the 80's, man I'm getting old.

Inrelation to the cut not having to be all the way to the floor. This I beg to differ, it is extremely more difficult to move the whole body out of the way then just duck the head to the side. The timing for the movement must be exact and you must truly have felt the attack. If you just move the head you have more room to cheat. Yes, I know some of the bujinkan tests have been to the floor, I watched youtube. I actually watched Ralph Severe's test on youtube, I know in the bujinkan he is a contensious subject, however, it looked to be a good test, just not to the floor :), and some of the other tests were good. However, to watch a video and rate a test is not the same as being there and feeling the energy in the room from the Soke. In Japan, if you do not pass your test on the first try you are considered low class because in the old days, or for genbukan present (7th dan), it was a reall sword and you would be dead or seriously injured.

For us, during the kyoshi test you must roll and escape or Tanemura Sensei will cut you a second time. If you do not escape enough he will cut you a second time and fail you. Also, just because you are 5th Dan in the Genbukan does not mean you get to take the kyoshi test.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Troy Wideman

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Hi Brian,

I have all kinds of old video's from the 80's of Doron Navon, Ilan Gatengno, Moti Navi, etc. If you like send me your contact info and I will try to free up some time to send you a copy.

Also noticed your signature says; instinctive response training, what is this in relation to. Are you a police officer, military etc. Just curious. I spent 10 years on a Tactical Team and was 2IC, I also am currently assigned to my departments training branch and conduct all use of force and firearms training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

ElfTengu

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Hello ElfTengu,

There is a differnence between the 7th dan test and the 8th dan test. However, I will not attempt to explain it, first off I am not at that level yet and I would only be guessing at how it works. I guess after I pass the test I will be able to tell you more :).
I can only comment truly on the things I have ranked in and passed. I am looking forward to the test though.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Hi Troy,

I trained under Doron when he visited the UK in the 80s, he was something else, what with the Feldenkrais material as well.

Back in the aforementioned decade it was believed by many people that the Bujinkan Sakki Test was performed with a shinai at 5th dan, a bokken at 6th dan, and a shinken at 7th dan, and this was at a time when I don't believe there was anyone over 8th or 9th dan in the org. I don't know if this was true but I don't believe anyone gets re-tested after 5th dan these days in our org.

Just for info by the way, I have yet to even take the 5th dan test despite my years!
 

Troy Wideman

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Hello Elf Tengu,

Yes, I heard that same story back in the 80's about the Bujinkan sakki Test. I already told Brian this story but I will relay it to you as well. In the 80's we were all training at a club owned by Greg Tremblay, very nice guy, and Ed Brown. I believe Greg was under the Shadows of Iga back then. It was the only Ninpo club around and I was driving from Kitchener. We were sitting there training and a small gentleman walks in and sits down and watches the class. At the end of training he walks up to us and introduces himself as Doron Navon a 5th dan under Hatsummi. We all thought he was full of it, up until that point all the information stated that Steven Hayes was the only foreingner. Greg then calls down to speak with Steven Hayes and Steven Hayes almost jumps through the phone that Doron is in Canada and was wondering what he was doing up there. Well that is how we all got connect to Doron Navon. Doron was up here studying Feldenkrais and living at the university of Toronto. I immediately noticed a difference between what Doron was teaching and what was being taught in the states ie: earth, wind, fire etc. The techniques were done hard and precise by Doron. I eventually ranked to 3rd dan under Doron, he was a great man, I respect the Israeli Bujinkan instructors immensley. I actually spent a month there training at the Israeli honbu dojo back in 87. Unfortunately, I lost contact with them and started to search out information myself since there was not much about the core of the art. I traveled around and attended all the Manaka seminars. I then found out about Tanemura Sensei and attended one of his seminars and realised right away that I had found my true teacher. I have been training hard since and I am a loyal student of Tanemura Sensei.
An interesting side note is that Doron was a student of Tanemura Sensei's until he broke away from the bujinkan. Tanemura sensei used to teach all the foreigners first before they would get to see Hatsummi.

Just a little history for you.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Troy,

First off, I wish you the best with your test. I would say good luck, if I felt luck was a major factor...

And to add to your history lesson, if you check out Hayes' first book ("The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art", sometimes refered to as "the green book"), the entire book documents Hayes' recollection of his early training experiences in Japan. In this book, it is explicitly obvious that Hayes' actual first teacher was Tanemura Sensei, and only Hatsumi Sensei later. There is actually an interesting little meeting/demonstration in Hayes' hotel between Hayes, Hatsumi and Tanemura in which he is accepted as a student, and instructed to meet Tanemura the next day.
 

Troy Wideman

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HI Chris,

Yes, I actually knew that and know the whole story behind it. It is actually quite a humorous story. The other story is how Danny waxman (hope I spelt his name right) and Doron became students. Tanemura Sensei actually had to knock out doron to prove the art was real, this was under the noda bachi. However, don't need to go into detail with these stories or it might ruffle some feathers and I truly appreciate how people handle themselves on this forum.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

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