Rules & Integrity

[Andrew Green]

But slipping in a dirty technique knowing you will get a warning the first time as a way to obtain an advantage?

That is counter to one of the Five Tenets of TKD: Integrity

~ http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50341

I think this brings up a interesting question about a blurry line.

Where is that line between using the rules to your advantage and loss of integrity? In a MMA fight a weaker ground fighter might try and stall out on the ground to get a stand up, or a superior wrestler might work control and weak shots to score points for a decission rather then looking to finish. These are seen as acceptable, if not greatly entertaining.

In a point fighting tournament someone might take advantage of a rule against sweeps to hop around on one foot, another might take advantage of the fact that using a sweep once only gives you a warning and take there one "free" foul.

Where is that line between winning by using the rules to your advantage, and poor sportsmanship?

 

[CoryKS]

~ http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50341

I think this brings up a interesting question about a blurry line.

Where is that line between using the rules to your advantage and loss of integrity? In a MMA fight a weaker ground fighter might try and stall out on the ground to get a stand up, or a superior wrestler might work control and weak shots to score points for a decission rather then looking to finish. These are seen as acceptable, if not greatly entertaining.

In a point fighting tournament someone might take advantage of a rule against sweeps to hop around on one foot, another might take advantage of the fact that using a sweep once only gives you a warning and take there one "free" foul.

Where is that line between winning by using the rules to your advantage, and poor sportsmanship?

Like you said, it may not be entertaining but if it's in accordance with the rules it should be accepted. I think that's different than what was discussed in the other thread, though, which was an illegal move under certain rulesets. The offside trap in soccer would be an example of using the rules to your advantage; a kick to the nads would be poor sportsmanship. And just because you only get a warning the first time doesn't make it 'in accordance with the rules'.

 

[jks9199]

The line seems clear to me...

Whether or not you get warned or punished, if you do something in violation of the rules, you're cheating. You're not playing by the rules, by definition. Even if you know you'll only get a warning for the first one...

But, if you take advantage of the rules to do something, whether it's stalling for the end of the round, or a reset, or using techniques that'd never be an option under different rules because of the rules... That's just playing the game.

 

[Kacey]

In addition to what's already been said, it is important to see the distinction between intentional and accidental rule violations. Tournament and training sparring are based on the belief that nothing above a certain level of injury will happen intentionally - accidents happen, yes, and we all have to be ready for it - but to deliberately break the rules to gain an advantage is, as has been said, a breach of integrity, and integrity is, IMHO, a primary difference between martial artists and street brawlers. Others will disagree, I'm sure - but that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

It's like good humor and good porn. Hard to describe, but you know it when you see it.

 

[grydth]

This is an excellent topic. Both of my daughters participate in tournaments and it is vital that both parents and sensei emphasize not behaving in this way.

Too many wrongdoers never consider the potential consequences....

1) You get away with it.... so why does the trophy bring you no satisfaction over the next months? You've sold your soul for a statue - and there is no pawn shop where you can go to get it back.

2) You seriously hurt the opponent... and a week later get sued. While sparring usually falls under the assumption of risk defense, your opponent never assumed the risk of an intentional illegal assault. Say bye to all your assets. Maybe your dojo can be sued to - won't you be popular there!

3) Same as 2, but you think you get away with it.... years later at the ultimate match of your life, your opponent bows out and concedes in front of a huge crowd.... refusing to spar with you because you hurt his sister two years back... with a disdainful wave, he walks away. You can have the statue, he says. How do you feel now, 'champ'?

4) Same as 2, but the girl comes from an MA family and, while the judge missed it, they saw it clearly. On the street, her friends/family apply some illegal techniques of their own.... you wake up days later in intensive care with a skull fracture. You still have your trophy - but the surgical team at the ER had to extract it from an interesting place....

5) You love nobody more than your kid brother.... and this is his first tournament. In horror, you watch him go down with a crippling injury inflicted by the dojo you victimized. You see their grins... payback, after all, is.....

Sometimes, cheating does not only cost you your soul.

 

[Andrew Green]

So how about leaving the ring intentionally to avoid getting hit? It's a warning and intentional. Playing the game or not playing fair?

Or grabbing the ropes / cage to avoid a takedown in MMA?

Things that are not fouls in that they are dangerous and used to hurt the other person, but rather used to avoid being scored on in exchange for a warning, or even a loss of point. Certainely not something you would want to see a disqualification for, but playing/breaking the rules to ones advantage is definately there.

All part of the game?

 

[jks9199]

So how about leaving the ring intentionally to avoid getting hit? It's a warning and intentional. Playing the game or not playing fair?

Or grabbing the ropes / cage to avoid a takedown in MMA?

Things that are not fouls in that they are dangerous and used to hurt the other person, but rather used to avoid being scored on in exchange for a warning, or even a loss of point. Certainely not something you would want to see a disqualification for, but playing/breaking the rules to ones advantage is definately there.

All part of the game?

It'd depend on the rules. If the rules permit leaving the competition area or holding onto the fence, then it's playing the game. Some rules, however, penalize you if you run out of the ring too often... They've got a sanction there to discourage it. It's not cheating -- but you'll stand a good chance to lose.

Some years back, I knew a fighter who's preferred "technique" in kickboxing was to throw a short combination, then clinch, relying on the judge t separate the fighters at the clinch. He was playing in the rules... and paid for the weakness of his approach when he fought someone who could sidestep well.