Royce Gracie believes BJJ Competitions aren't helpful for Self Defese (video)

[Yamabushii]

I just came across this video and wanted to get some conversation going on this. I'm curious about how other people in the BJJ community feel about his remarks. Five-minute video below.

 

[Cynik75]

Usually sports oriented bjjists do not care about self defence.

 

[skribs]

He's focused on one area of martial arts, and that's great. But he seems to be speaking for everyone, and I don't like that. There are a ton of people who join martial arts to compete. There are a ton of people who join martial arts for a number of reasons.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think Bjj would still be dangerous. I don't take BJJ lightly just because someone does it as a sport.

 

[MetalBoar]

I think Bjj would still be dangerous. I don't take BJJ lightly just because someone does it as a sport.

I agree, but the more one focuses on the competition the more danger there is to losing sight of the self defense applications. The more restrictive (or divorced from reality) the ruleset the more this risk increases. I don't follow the trends in BJJ competition, so I don't know where things are now, but there was a time when it seemed that it was a common and effective strategy to fall on your back and go butt rouching around the mat. It may be advantageous under the rules, but if I really wanted to hurt someone in a bar fight situation, I'd love to see them rouching towards me like that.

Now that isn't a problem if you train broadly, but if that's an extremely effective approach under the rules you're going to have to spend a disproportionate percentage of your training time learning how to effectively butt rouche and how to deal with an opposing butt roucher. It's my understanding that a lot of BJJ schools mostly ignore stand up grappling skills these days because it's not useful in competition. While BJJ without any standup may still have a lot of SD applications, that's definitely moving away from an SD focused and effective art. You can see something similar in western sport foil fencing, in which the flexible blade can be cast, like a fishing rod, to make bending flick attacks that are hard to defend against. It's not something that would work with a real blade in combat, but it takes up a lot of air in foil fencing training. So, competition is useful for developing self defense skills right up until it isn't.

 

[Buka]

It depends on the experience of the practitioner. I wasn't introduced to BJJ until 92, I had been training full time fighting arts at that point for twenty years.

BJJ changed everything. I have no idea what it would have meant to me if I had never trained before. But just about every day in the BJJ school my mind was racing "You know what this would be good for?" Or "I need to ask so so for more of that."
or "Oh my God why didn't someone teach me that years ago!"

In my opinion, every single thing you ever do in Martial Arts (minus all BS) every single day you spend in the dojo (staying away from BS dojos) adds up to becoming what you want to be as a Martial Artist, what you want to be as a fighter, what you want to be as far as self defense is concerned and what you want to be as a teacher. That last one depends on your ability to teach, especially basics.

 

[skribs]

It depends on the experience of the practitioner. I wasn't introduced to BJJ until 92, I had been training full time fighting arts at that point for twenty years.

BJJ changed everything. I have no idea what it would have meant to me if I had never trained before. But just about every day in the BJJ school my mind was racing "You know what this would be good for?" Or "I need to ask so so for more of that."
or "Oh my God why didn't someone teach me that years ago!"

In my opinion, every single thing you ever do in Martial Arts (minus all BS) every single day you spend in the dojo (staying away from BS dojos) adds up to becoming what you want to be as a Martial Artist, what you want to be as a fighter, what you want to be as far as self defense is concerned and what you want to be as a teacher. That last one depends on your ability to teach, especially basics.

I didn't realize you were that old!

Oh, you mean 1992...

 

[dunc]

I tend to agree with this sentiment
In my experience BJJ has 6 aspects: Competition gi, competition no gi, MMA, academy training gi, academy training no gi, & self defence
Probably the most visible components are the competition sides and naturally these areas have experienced a lot of innovations that are driven by the rulesets (eg lapel guards in gi and berimbolos in no gi)
Although the rules are designed to approximate a fight they are not perfect and innovations driven by the rulesets generally speaking (not always) detract from the self defence side of things
I’d also say that the self defence aspect of BJJ is the most underdeveloped side of the art. It’s based on the judo self defence curriculum which is a reasonable place to start, but it hasn’t had anywhere near the same amount of attention, refinement, deep study etc that the other aspects have

 

[drop bear]

I tend to agree with this sentiment
In my experience BJJ has 6 aspects: Competition gi, competition no gi, MMA, academy training gi, academy training no gi, & self defence
Probably the most visible components are the competition sides and naturally these areas have experienced a lot of innovations that are driven by the rulesets (eg lapel guards in gi and berimbolos in no gi)
Although the rules are designed to approximate a fight they are not perfect and innovations driven by the rulesets generally speaking (not always) detract from the self defence side of things
I’d also say that the self defence aspect of BJJ is the most underdeveloped side of the art. It’s based on the judo self defence curriculum which is a reasonable place to start, but it hasn’t had anywhere near the same amount of attention, refinement, deep study etc that the other aspects have

I kind of want to have a go at the Gracie combatives.

 

[drop bear]

Regarding berimbolos and the like. I understand how it looks and feels street fight impractical as opposed to basic mma wrestle up concepts.

But they kind of do two things. Set you up for leg locks. And set you up for back takes.

Now for self defence if you take someone's back. You have a massive advantage on the ground. A massive advantage striking. And if you want to leave. They will have a real problem stopping you.

So it is definitely something you could use in self defense.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Never participated in BJJ myself. Self-defense is different to competition. We all know this. People join martial clubs for all kinds of reasons. Some styles are set-up for, and based on competition. The environment in which you train will influence how you proceed. The Gracies created the UFC in order to promote and spread BJJ around the world and they have achieved their aim.

Whatever your chosen style, it is sure most youngsters will want to test their skills. Competition with rules is the best, and safest, way to test your techniques, skill and intestinal fortitude.

Is it the most effective way to practice and prepare for self-defense scenarios? Well, it certainly helps. But there is more to self-defense than just fighting somebody.

To be honest, 100% honest. If you are fit and strong, understand a few basic techniques and can handle aggressive situations and people without being overcome by fear, then you will be fine. There is no need to spend endless hours learning martial arts techniques.

If your main aim in training is self-defense there are much more effective ways of using your time than heading to a martial arts dojo.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If your main aim in training is self-defense there are much more effective ways of using your time than heading to a martial arts dojo.

I would say yes and no, because I've seen examples where martial arts skills would have come in handle. There was a case where there was a struggle over a shot gun, Knowing staff techniques would have given the victim the advantage in terms of controlling the weapon, It would have prevent him from being shot in the chest point blank.

Not everyone wants to carry around a weapon. In Georgia, most people who carry weapons are also out of shape. There have been numerous cases where unarmed people have been able to steal guns from the people who were carrying them.

Are their better ways. Yes, but we also know that a combination of things is probably the best approach. If a person can't scramble for 30 seconds then then chances of them maintaining control of any advantage they have is greatly reduced.

 

[dunc]

To be honest, 100% honest. If you are fit and strong, understand a few basic techniques and can handle aggressive situations and people without being overcome by fear, then you will be fine. There is no need to spend endless hours learning martial arts techniques.

If your main aim in training is self-defense there are much more effective ways of using your time than heading to a martial arts dojo.

I’m not sure I agree with this
I agree that a little knowledge and the ability to handle aggressive situations probably gets you a good step forward towards being able to handle simple self defense situations. I base this on the experience of UK police officers that I know
However, I feel that for most people practicing martial arts is probably the best and most efficient way to teach you how to be calm when someone manhandles you aggressively

 

[drop bear]

Never participated in BJJ myself. Self-defense is different to competition. We all know this. People join martial clubs for all kinds of reasons. Some styles are set-up for, and based on competition. The environment in which you train will influence how you proceed. The Gracies created the UFC in order to promote and spread BJJ around the world and they have achieved their aim.

Whatever your chosen style, it is sure most youngsters will want to test their skills. Competition with rules is the best, and safest, way to test your techniques, skill and intestinal fortitude.

Is it the most effective way to practice and prepare for self-defense scenarios? Well, it certainly helps. But there is more to self-defense than just fighting somebody.

To be honest, 100% honest. If you are fit and strong, understand a few basic techniques and can handle aggressive situations and people without being overcome by fear, then you will be fine. There is no need to spend endless hours learning martial arts techniques.

If your main aim in training is self-defense there are much more effective ways of using your time than heading to a martial arts dojo.

It is important to understand how fighting works though.

You don't want to go from drills and theory to a bad guy who wants to hurt you without having some idea of what that is like.

And it is testable and repeatable. Where a lot of self defence skills are not.

I mean for example. Someone could be a master of deescalation. But if we tested that with resistance. I am just going to punch him in the head. No matter what he does or says.

 

[wab25]

So, I listened to the interview.... and I don't think I agree with the title of the video. I never heard Royce say that competitions are not helpful for self defense.

First off, the interviewer is asking questions, but Royce is responding to some other question... he is not answering the question being asked. This happens lots of times in interviews like this. For whatever reason, he is not answering the question being asked, which is why the interviewer keeps trying to circle him back. As such, I don't think Royce was trying to give his opinion of the way BJJ has developed.... he was trying to politely get through yet another interview. So, I would not read too much into what he said.

Second, if I listen to what Royce says.... he says that there are techniques that are many times used in competition, that would not work on the street. He also says that he does not teach his students those techniques, only techniques that are useful on the street, in a real fight. He points out that there is a difference between competition and a real fight on the street. But, unless I missed it, he never said or implied that competitions are not helpful for self defense... even if that is the title of the video. I think the title is wrong, probably mistitled on purpose to drive views.... and we all fell for it. But, that is not what Royce was saying.

 

[marvin8]

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[Taiji Rebel]

Agree with most of what you guys are saying. There is way more to martial arts than self-defense anyhow. Competitions are a fun way for youngsters and those who have no real fighting experiences to test their mettle. If you train in a style which is competition-based, then it is highly likely that you will end up competing.

Oftentimes it is the young (or the dumb) who imagine themselves in self-defense scenarios and spend years training for such an event. How many end up in actual self-defense situations is anyone's guess? But I would bet my bottom dollar most martial artists never need use their skills outside of a dojo, or competitive environment - this of course excludes those working in professional security settings.

Martial arts are heavily promoted as systems of self-defense, yet their value goes way beyond fighting in competitions, or the 'street'

 

[drop bear]

Agree with most of what you guys are saying. There is way more to martial arts than self-defense anyhow. Competitions are a fun way for youngsters and those who have no real fighting experiences to test their mettle. If you train in a style which is competition-based, then it is highly likely that you will end up competing.

Oftentimes it is the young (or the dumb) who imagine themselves in self-defense scenarios and spend years training for such an event. How many end up in actual self-defense situations is anyone's guess? But I would bet my bottom dollar most martial artists never need use their skills outside of a dojo, or competitive environment - this of course excludes those working in professional security settings.

Martial arts are heavily promoted as systems of self-defense, yet their value goes way beyond fighting in competitions, or the 'street'

What value?

 

[Buka]

To be honest, 100% honest. If you are fit and strong, understand a few basic techniques and can handle aggressive situations and people without being overcome by fear, then you will be fine.

That's pretty much true. Unfortunately, it only describes about one percent of the population.

 

[MetalBoar]

That's pretty much true. Unfortunately, it only describes about one percent of the population.

Yep! Probably less than 1%.

Sometimes it has described me and at others it hasn't. I feel like I'm usually in or close to the top 1% of my peer group in this regard and my peer group includes a larger than average number of martial arts enthusiasts. That being said, depending on my employment and other life demands, over the course of my life I have been many combinations of in and out of sufficient shape and in and out of sufficient practice with the basic techniques I've learned to feel confident I could successfully deal with a determined attacker.