Roots of Hwa Rang Do

[foolbae1228]

Hey, everyone. I have been told many things about the roots of Hwa Rang Do and that DJN Joo Bang Lee learned and mastered the art from Swam Dosa, but now I'm hearing other rumors and want to know what is truth. Is the Hwa Rang Do related to other arts, and what do we have to prove or disprove DJN's story? Any and all tips are welcome, and please tell me where you found this information, so that I can look as well.

Farang-
Ryan

 

[Bob D.]

Hello Ryan, Welcome! I think most of your question can be answered by searching back in past posts. Where do you study?
regards, Bob

 

[foolbae1228]

Farang, Mr. Donnelly


I train in Payson, AZ with SBN Chris Bailey. He is the one that refered me to this site. Can you tell me which threads/posts would be helpful in my search?

Hope to talk to you soon, hopefully meet you one day as well.

Farang
Ryan

 

[Bob D.]

Oh, That instructor. Gee, you guys have it rough up there in Payson! (I'm just jealous of course).
I'd have to do the same search you would. A search back on KMA-general is a start. Also check out "society of Hwa rang" website.

 

[foolbae1228]

Farang

Will do, thanks a bunch. (And you're right, it is really rough up here).

Farang
Ryan

 

[arnisador]

Is the Hwa Rang Do related to other arts, and what do we have to prove or disprove DJN's story?

As I understand it, internal and external consistency form the main arguments against the story given in the three Ohara books on HRD, and the usual countertheory is that it's principally a modified form of Hapkido.

But the advice to search the fora here is good advice.

 

[floweringknight]

Ryan - Here is what I have been able to uncover so far:

1 - Your teacher (and his teachers) learned Hwa Rang Do from Joo Bang Lee

2 - Joo Bang Lee learned Hapkido from Yong Sool Choi (Lee was said to be his highest ranking student) plus probably some Tae Kyon as well as other "stuff".

3 - Yong Sool Choi learned Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sul from Takeda Sogaku (in Japan, where it was called Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu) Yong Sool Choi was believed to be among Takeda's highest ranking students. Takeda was the Head Master there.....sorry I can't find the name of the dojo....a conspiracy I'm sure.
Please remember: This is not etched in stone; rather, scribbled in chalk on the sidewalk. EVERYONE please correct any and ALL inconsistencies, errors, wrongs, mistakes, fallacies, etc. Thanks. And by all means please add, add, add!

 

[glad2bhere]

If I can put just a bit of tweaking in here......

HwaRangdo at one time was called HwaRang Kwan Hapkido. There is still a person in San Francisco who teaches under this label.

Kuk Sool Won at one time was Kuk Sool Hapkido.

Han Pul was a derivation of Chois' tradition of Hapkido. There are many other examples of derivations to the Choi tradition.

Before Hapkido was called "hapkido" it was called "Hapki yukwonsul". Before that it was Hapkiyusool. Before that it was just "yu sool" which is the Korean rendering of the same characters for "Yawara" and for "ju-jutsu". In the case of the heritage we are speaking of, the "yawara" in this case was derived from the "ki-ai" or "sen-sen" side of what was called the DRAJJ tradition after 1915, so named by Takeda Sokaku. Derivations of this art run the gamut from Yanagi-ryu JJ to Shorinji-ryu Kempo and beyond. So.... when you talk about Joo Bang Lee and the HwaRangDo, what you are actually talking about is a derivation, of a derivation, of a subset of an art. No magic. No mysticism. Just simple history. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[floweringknight]

Bruce - Thank you for filling in the gaps! I continue to learn.....Do you know the history of DRAJJ? When and where it started? Thanks again.

 

[glad2bhere]

Yes, I do, but there are so many sources written by people who are much more knowledgeable concerning this information that I am not sure you would want to have me respond. I would strongly encourage you to go to one of these resources directly.

An older source of sound standing is the late Don Draeger. His three volume set on the history of the Japanaese traditions is classic as he was perhaps the first person to really open Japanese traditions to the West. Since you are particularly interested in DRAJJ see volume 3 ("Modern Bujutsu and Budo") Chapter 8. Its is entitled "Aikido" but goes well back into the history of DRAJJ.
(ISBN 0-8348-0351-8)

A newer source was written by Stanley Pranin. His book is a history of DRAJJ as told through a series of interviews with the greatest figures in DRAJJ history. There is no one, single story, but rather the reader is able to get a multi-view presentation of the History as seen through different eyes at different times. "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" begins with a kind of standard history and then follows with seven interviews and a DRAJJ sampler of techniques. (ISBN 4-900586-18-8)

I think this is about as close to the horses' mouth as you are going to get.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[foolbae1228]

Wow! All of these sources are great! Thank you all very much.


Farang-
Ryan

 

[floweringknight]

I truly appreciate your help! Thank you.

 

[DuneViking]

If I can put just a bit of tweaking in here......

HwaRangdo at one time was called HwaRang Kwan Hapkido. There is still a person in San Francisco who teaches under this label.

Kuk Sool Won at one time was Kuk Sool Hapkido.

Han Pul was a derivation of Chois' tradition of Hapkido. There are many other examples of derivations to the Choi tradition.

Before Hapkido was called "hapkido" it was called "Hapki yukwonsul". Before that it was Hapkiyusool. Before that it was just "yu sool" which is the Korean rendering of the same characters for "Yawara" and for "ju-jutsu". In the case of the heritage we are speaking of, the "yawara" in this case was derived from the "ki-ai" or "sen-sen" side of what was called the DRAJJ tradition after 1915, so named by Takeda Sokaku. Derivations of this art run the gamut from Yanagi-ryu JJ to Shorinji-ryu Kempo and beyond. So.... when you talk about Joo Bang Lee and the HwaRangDo, what you are actually talking about is a derivation, of a derivation, of a subset of an art. No magic. No mysticism. Just simple history. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Very nice job G2BH! Consider this an addition to your reputation, its all I can find how to do since there are no scales for me to use. artyon:

This info explains why I had not heard of HwarangDo other than in historical context until discovering this forum. I had heard of Hapkido even as a kid back in the 60-70s, but I understand how things evolve and that understanding is a three edged sword (well according to Kosh Naranek).

 

[Bearhugj]

Ryan
One interesting item,
(I know there is of course a lot of discussion as to hwa rang do's roots)
but...
as to Su Am Do Sa....
the Words "Do Sa" are really a "title" that is frequently used in Buddist circles, but the meaning can be a bit ambigous as it's an ancient word. but I suppose it's meaning can be likened to the highest levels of mastery of buddhism. When I was in korea my first time back in the late 80's, even general people were familiar with Su Am Do Sa as a public figure in Buddhism. As to the name Su Am, I think that's probably a name he took on after becoming a Monk. Most monks take on names that have some meaning in buddist and probably have roots in ancient Sanskrit from India....as "su am" is not at all a typical korean name.

 

[shesulsa]

The pointy end of the secret police worked for the king for free? :BSmeter:

These kind of things take money. Lots of money. People need to be trained. They need equipment. They need supplies. They need clothes for their children, food, land, houses, livestock, and so on. By way of comparison single mounted warrior and his retinue took the entire agricultural surplus of a European village. And these guys did all that and more and in secret for nothing? That's worse than unbelievable. It's an insult to the reader's intelligence. Besides, no king would trust people like that. He'd want them on the payroll, depending on his money. Loyalty is nice, but gold pays the bills, and free labor goes away when money is tight.

I'll bet plenty of six to five or even seven to ten that these fairy tales started getting traction after the ninja craze started. "They have ninja? We have Super Good Guy Ninja!"

I love how you so vehemently attack all things you disagree with. If you weren't so elequent, it'd be tiresome. :lookie:

The non-military and some military hwarang were nobility and most were of higher society, hence they didn't really need a lot of money - though one can reasonably conclude certainly they enjoyed *some* recognition or appreciative pittance in one form or another. Although the shadow of doubt as a result of *extreme* filial piety is perpetually cast - enough to say it's actually plausible that some of these people did serve their king for free. The tales of loyalty, suicide pacts, determination are the stuff of legend on the peninsula ... North and South.

Again, this is the verbal history I've received - and we just cannot know all the *real* history of all Asia. Few things are more proverbial than the constant coups and rewritten history forthwith.

So ... before you hop on your horse and try to run away with my flag again ... read the words I typed ... "This is the verbal history I've been given."

 

[shesulsa]

You know, folks, even Joo Bang Lee has stated that many of the monestaries in China were attended by Korean monks.

Arts have been shared across borders, folks. Come on. You say Potayto and I say Potahto.

Do you *think* it might be *plausible* that there have been spies who brought training secrets back to their own militaries? Perhaps hundreds or thousands of years ago? And as arts were cultivated on the peninsula and in the north these arts grew? and perhaps were augmented by further recon? I'm sorry, the whole lineage thing just leaves me dry (with all due respect to Xue and others like him).

When you fight or spar someone, do you take notice of their strengths and weaknesses? their approach to offense and defense? their strategy? Has this ever changed your approach to either the same individual or others? Don't you think you might not be the first person to do so?

I don't see the necessity of bashing arts, beliefs, oral history, persons sharing these things herein, if we can all just accept that the most likely result is almost definitely what did happen.

*Dons Forest Gump voice* ... 'And that's all I have to say about thayat."

*shesulsa voice* ... maybe ...

 

[tellner]

And we already know that Joo Bang Lee lied like a cheap carpet about so much of what he did, who he trained with, his background and so on. His fairy tales about learning the secret sacred millennia-old warrior arts of the mystical-mystical Hwarang were just that, fairy stories. He can certainly fight, no doubt about that. And he's turned out lots of good people. But he has no credibility when it comes to history. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

 

[Tom]

I don't see the necessity of bashing arts, beliefs, oral history, persons sharing these things herein, if we can all just accept that the most likely result is almost definitely what did happen.

Yeah but no one here is saying hwa rang do sucks! They're just saying that some tall tales that started getting spread around in the 1980s were prolly just that: tall tales. When someone wants to tell me about there art, I give a lot more creedence to people that actually talk about their art. The talk about what their forms are like and what stuff they do. The people that talk about some mythic or spiritual or esoteric stuff leave me with serious doubt. You like to talk a lot ma'am based on how much you hang out here, but the fact that you don't talk about your training means your point of view hasn't done much to change my mind. Peace out.

 

[tellner]

Shesulsa, take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't say "They don't have skills." I didn't say "They can't turn out good students." In fact, I very explicitly said just the opposite.

I'm saying that they lied about where they got what they got and got caught at it. Lies are not the truth no matter how good they make a person feel. It's not "respect" to accept lies as the truth when the evidence is there in front of you. It's evil. It's not "bashing" to point out where someone has told a lie and to refuse to smile and go along with it.

Two plus two equals four no matter how much you admire the person who says it's five.

Blacks are not inferior subhumans no matter how many Klansmen fervently believe otherwise.

The Holy Father, the Holy Church, human decency and a millennium and a half of tradition and Holy Doctrine said that the Earth was fixed in the center of the Universe, and the Sun revolved around it. Galileo was right to say "It still moves" even though everyone respectable said otherwise.

And Joo Bang Lee did not learn two thousand year old secrets of an extinct sect of Super Hwarang Warriors. He and his brother made that story up as has been documented elsewhere. It doesn't detract from his creation. But it does make him unreliable with regards to his personal honesty. It's sad, but that's the only way to call it.

This isn't being "vehement". It's not attacking you, your martial arts or the Korean peninsula and the people who live there. It's a matter of plain honesty and integrity. Recognizing the important and valuable things and not mixing them with lies increases the worth of those accomplishments. Adulterating them with fraud and falsehood cheapens them and tarnishes their good name.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Shesulsa, take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't say "They don't have skills." I didn't say "They can't turn out good students." In fact, I very explicitly said just the opposite.

I'm saying that they lied about where they got what they got and got caught at it. Lies are not the truth no matter how good they make a person feel. It's not "respect" to accept lies as the truth when the evidence is there in front of you. It's evil. It's not "bashing" to point out where someone has told a lie and to refuse to smile and go along with it.

Two plus two equals four no matter how much you admire the person who says it's five.

Blacks are not inferior subhumans no matter how many Klansmen fervently believe otherwise.

The Holy Father, the Holy Church, human decency and a millennium and a half of tradition and Holy Doctrine said that the Earth was fixed in the center of the Universe, and the Sun revolved around it. Galileo was right to say "It still moves" even though everyone respectable said otherwise.

And Joo Bang Lee did not learn two thousand year old secrets of an extinct sect of Super Hwarang Warriors. He and his brother made that story up as has been documented elsewhere. It doesn't detract from his creation. But it does make him unreliable with regards to his personal honesty. It's sad, but that's the only way to call it.

This isn't being "vehement". It's not attacking you, your martial arts or the Korean peninsula and the people who live there. It's a matter of plain honesty and integrity. Recognizing the important and valuable things and not mixing them with lies increases the worth of those accomplishments. Adulterating them with fraud and falsehood cheapens them and tarnishes their good name.

Well, I hope you feel the same about Pak Serak then...