Rank in an art indigenous to a certain country

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
…….This individual had essentially taken it upon himself to ride the name of our teacher and the reputation our style had earned to gain students.

This is S.O.P. (standard operating procedure) for people that make bogus claims to dan rank/affiliation with certain styles or groups. It is just because of this kind of behavior my teacher had to use a Trademark License.

 

[yilisifu]

We pretty much had to do the same thing......

 

[RyuShiKan]

It’s a sad day when martial artists, the people who for all intents and purposes have truth and integrity as part of most dojo kun, do such a thing.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
In the case of the Yiliquan instructor that went his own way, it was much less politics and much more an issue of responsibility.

This individual had essentially taken it upon himself to ride the name of our teacher and the reputation our style had earned to gain students. Once he had them, he flummoxed them by claiming to teach them the way he had been taught - which far too many people knew was incorrect.

Where Yilisifu would teach us a new form over the course of a few weeks (just getting the sequence down so we could practice it in its entirety), this individual would teach one posture or position per week. He promoted people to different grades without requiring them to adhere to the established standards and grading requirements that had been around for much, much longer than that particular individual had been around.

Eventually, the reputation we had earned over the years began to tarnish too much to allow the activity to continue. If he wants to make himself look bad, fine. But he wasn't going to be allowed to make the rest of us look bad as well.

As far as Yiliquan in general, and the Yiliquan Association in particular, are concerned, we are really a pretty easy going bunch. Everyone is required to meet the same standards. Period. If you don't know the material, you don't get promoted. But not too many folks are concerned about that anyway... Those who are usually drop out within the first 3 to 6 months.

Just wanted to clarify my comments...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I hear ya. As an instructor if he "changes" things, whether or nor not he makes false claims, it is responsibilty to walk the right path. In that case in was doubled with the false claims.

You I tell people that I teach them the way I was taught, but in actuallity that is just how I start them out. But I do tell them the differances.:asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by KennethKu
AH! See, you are missing the point. A fake can always claim that HIS TKD, WINGCHUN, or Moogookaipan whatever, IS NOT the same as the recognized authority, but something his secret "masters"/"grandmasters"/aka drinking buddies, made up on their own and they do not give a hoot about the authentic recognized authority. There is your "get out of jail & free to liar about your art" King of Diamonds! lol

Thats exactly my point anyone can claim anything they want and it is hard to prove, so why even try to prove it!

There are really no original styles of MA's practiced today so everybody pretty much took a little from this or from that to create what we know today as different styles, some are hundreds of years old, others are thousands and some are less than 20 years old, does this mean that one is better than the other? that can only be answered by the practitioner. SOME MAY EVEN BEEN DEVELOPED BY DRINKING BUDDIES, I dont know because i dont drink. ROFLMAO :rofl:

 

[KennethKu]

Not at all. You have totally missed, intentionally or not, MY POINT.

In case you still haven't got it, allow me to quote from my previous post.

If you belong to some bogus organizations that your drinking buddies made up, then it is all a farce.

If you belong to recognized organizations such as Kukkiwon or JKA or ITF, for examples, then post your certificate number, and someone can call the HQ where the HQ staffs can verify if you are what you claim to be.

Only Bull Crap claims that are hard, if not impossible, to verify.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Thats exactly my point anyone can claim anything they want and it is hard to prove, so why even try to prove it!

That’s kind of like saying there will always be thieves so why even try to catch them.
Due to the ever increasing amount of frauds that claim to be Sokes, Grandmasters, etc in the M.A.s I think we need more "self-policing" of martial arts claims rather than less.

Originally posted by DAC..florida
There are really no original styles of MA's practiced today so everybody pretty much took a little from this or from that to create what we know today as different styles, some are hundreds of years old, others are thousands and some are less than 20 years old, does this mean that one is better than the other? that can only be answered by the practitioner. SOME MAY EVEN BEEN DEVELOPED BY DRINKING BUDDIES, I dont know because i dont drink. ROFLMAO :rofl:

Again, you have missed the point. I am wondering how many times this has to be reiterated before you get it.
THE POINT IS NOT the “purity”, or lack, in a style but the people unqualified to make claims to rank or association to that style.
If someone claims rank in Goju, Uechi, or any other art but has no connection to them or claims rank they didn’t earn it is fraudulent.

 

[DAC..florida]

O.K.

enough for me, let me say that I think we agree to disagree here.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
O.K.

enough for me, let me say that I think we agree to disagree here.
:asian:

I guess I still fail to see how you don't agree with the rest of the people here...

Okay. Right now, this moment, I declare myself a Captain in the Texas Rangers, a NYPD SWAT team Sergeant, and an airline pilot.

Do you believe me? Wouldn't you want some sort of proof? Wouldn't you want those organizations to maintain some sort of central registry whereby the authenticity of such claims could be verified? Even if I were able to provide documentation, wouldn't you want that documentation to be able to be proven legitimate and authentic or not?

Given your profession, one that carries with it a great degree of responsibility and power, one that criminals and frauds often attempt to imitate in order to defraud the unsuspecting public, I find it really difficult to believe fully that you can't manage to see the simple logic behind everyone's argument here. It seems more that you are adhering to your argument because to do otherwise would make you look silly. Adhering to it actually makes you look sillier, but that's another point entirely.

The issue has gone far beyond one of "can he put up or should he shut up," and gone into the issue of there being such thing as proof at all!

There are probably millions of possible permutations of the "well, what if this" line of questioning. Fire away. I can defend this issue until Kingdom Come. But bottom line, it is an issue of legitimacy, a kind that can be proven in ways other than fisticuffs. I learned from my teacher, who learned from his teacher, who learned from his and so on. If no paper was ever issued, fine. Someone, somewhere, can verify it. But in today's modern age, we have the resources and technology to both counterfeit and debunk all kinds of documents. It is important that we understand that anything can be counterfeited, but so too can any counterfeit be shown to be such.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Wouldn't you want those organizations to maintain some sort of central registry

I still think this is an important point that deserves more attention--people are confusing "rank in Goju" (say) with "rank granted by/through a particular Goju organization". Using one of your examples, determining that someone is indeed a member of the NYPD is easier than determining that they are a police officer (somewhere). With all the Goju groups, it's hard to verify rank in Goju--unless one knows the organization. And couldn't some family be maintaining the art from pre-organization times? Are they illegitimate?

 

[Matt Stone]

If a small group had maintained its training from a time immemorial, fine. Anyone claiming to have studied with them or had rank granted by them could be evaluated easily. No worries.

I have absolutely no heartburn for a small, unknown organization to have issued rank to folks within its own desmesne... No worries. Hell, I'd be a damn hypocrite if I said I had a problem with it, since that is exactly what Yiliquan has been for a very long time!

My heartburn lies with the folks that claim rank through a) a well known organization or b) an organization that has nothing to do with the style of MA they study.

If you claim rank through Bill's Auto Body, fine. Show me the proof. If your certificate was signed by Bill himself, fine. But you should still be able to prove it!

Claiming rank through the WMAA, I should have some document signed by Datu Hartman or one of his instructors. Failing that, I will have a darn hard time holding up my claims. Not to mention if I show my face in Buffalo I'll have to look out for flying rattan...

But, for the sake of argument, let's say I make Guro under a WMAA instructor. I decide I no longer want to be part of the WMAA. Doesn't change where I trained, where I learned what I know. Doesn't change who issued my rank, either. So I start my own thingie, and break out on my own. Fine again. My students can still back up who they trained with, and I can back up who I trained with.

It's a really simple concept... I mean, c'mon! I am the one posting, and if I can come up with it, it must be simple!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If a small group had maintained its training from a time immemorial, fine. Anyone claiming to have studied with them or had rank granted by them could be evaluated easily. No worries.

Just to add to that..........such an organization would be "known" whether or not they were the "official" group or not.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I guess I still fail to see how you don't agree with the rest of the people here...

Okay. Right now, this moment, I declare myself a Captain in the Texas Rangers, a NYPD SWAT team Sergeant, and an airline pilot.

Do you believe me? Wouldn't you want some sort of proof? Wouldn't you want those organizations to maintain some sort of central registry whereby the authenticity of such claims could be verified? Even if I were able to provide documentation, wouldn't you want that documentation to be able to be proven legitimate and authentic or not?

Given your profession, one that carries with it a great degree of responsibility and power, one that criminals and frauds often attempt to imitate in order to defraud the unsuspecting public, I find it really difficult to believe fully that you can't manage to see the simple logic behind everyone's argument here. It seems more that you are adhering to your argument because to do otherwise would make you look silly. Adhering to it actually makes you look sillier, but that's another point entirely.

The issue has gone far beyond one of "can he put up or should he shut up," and gone into the issue of there being such thing as proof at all!

There are probably millions of possible permutations of the "well, what if this" line of questioning. Fire away. I can defend this issue until Kingdom Come. But bottom line, it is an issue of legitimacy, a kind that can be proven in ways other than fisticuffs. I learned from my teacher, who learned from his teacher, who learned from his and so on. If no paper was ever issued, fine. Someone, somewhere, can verify it. But in today's modern age, we have the resources and technology to both counterfeit and debunk all kinds of documents. It is important that we understand that anything can be counterfeited, but so too can any counterfeit be shown to be such.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I guess what I am trying to say is that even if you proved all of they above claims the truth is still in the eye of the reader and some may never be satisfied with internet proof, and if you try to convince them you are indeed wasting your time.

True at some point there should be some sort of common proof that all should accept, but who sets these rules and decides what should be accepted as proof and what should not.

My point is simple it is nearly impossible to prove claims over the internet to some people and trying to is a waste of time.

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

I have absolutely no heartburn for a small, unknown organization to have issued rank to folks within its own desmesne... No worries. Hell, I'd be a damn hypocrite if I said I had a problem with it, since that is exactly what Yiliquan has been for a very long time!

And unfortunately some just don't make it for various reasons. Perhaps one standard for all would help the matter. But coming up with a standard that is mutually agreed upon....

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
My point is simple it is nearly impossible to prove claims over the internet to some people and trying to is a waste of time.

about as impossible as sending amjpeg or zip file for some I guess.
(private joke)

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
about as impossible as sending amjpeg or zip file for some I guess.
(private joke)

Alright you got me, that was a good one!:rofl: :rofl:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Alright you got me, that was a good one!:rofl: :rofl:

I was being facetious……..

 

[A.R.K.]

I was being facetious……..