Questions about Shotokan competitions: Then vs now

Discussion in 'Karate' started by chrissyp, Sep 12, 2018.

  1. chrissyp

    chrissyp Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    33
    As a guy who's done mostly Muay Thai, and switched to Shotokan, iv'e been interested in competing in a few tournaments.

    While I don't care if it's full contact or not, I do miss full contact fighting, and I did see back in the 80's competition, it looked pretty full contact, specially in England. Here's an example .

    I would LOVE to fight a karate match with this much contact, by question is, in the united states, do they still do it like this?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. dvcochran

    dvcochran Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    671
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Southeast
    Man, that was a GREAT spinning hook kick at 2:15.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Thanks for posting that video. It was great.

    I’ve seen recent/current videos like that. I guess it’s like a full contact point fighting. I can’t find them right now, but they’re out there. I’m pretty sure that type of competition is still around, but it’s not too common. I think mostly Europe and Japan is where the videos I’m thinking of were.
     
  4. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Trophy Points:
    238
    Location:
    New Iberia, Louisiana USA
    Check out Kyokushin tournaments. They still have strong full contact action.
     
  5. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Absolutely. Only they’re continuous sparring rather that start-stop. Unless there’s a knockdown.
     
  6. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Trophy Points:
    238
    Location:
    New Iberia, Louisiana USA
    Did the original poster specify such? I must have missed that.
     
  7. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Good question. I don’t think he did, now that I look back.
     
  8. chrissyp

    chrissyp Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Kyokushin would be fun, but there is none even remotely close, and i would like to do face punches too, which i cant in kyokushin. Im still thinking ill do a point competition, i just would love to find one that's full contact
     
  9. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    524
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Today's USA-NKF / USA Karate tournaments are emphasizing more vigorous contact, which in turn, changed the rules to allow for body shields.

    They're not nearly as bulky as a hogu used in olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competitions.

    Strikes to the head must still be controlled. Basically, face contact is restricted to adults, and even then, it's supposed to be a skin touch (no rocking of the opponent's head).
     
  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,808
    Likes Received:
    4,593
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I don't think so, but I haven't really been to one in a long while. But they started a complete pussification of Karate tournaments about twenty years ago. Apparently, they wanted to remove any semblance of what might be considered fighting. Didn't want to scare lil Johnny away.

    That was quickly followed by outlawing the chance of anyone getting their feelings hurt.



    My spies tell me tournaments will be staring contests by 2020. But it's going to be intense starring. This is Karate, after all.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,515
    Likes Received:
    422
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Texas
    And screaming ... lots of screaming. Like they do in the weapons kata. :)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,808
    Likes Received:
    4,593
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I always kind of liked the screaming in weapons Kata. Very entertaining, keeps you awake as a judge, too.

    I'd never give any consideration to screaming while scoring - but if someone is completely emotionally absent while doing their form, my scoring would probably reflect that.
     
  13. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,808
    Likes Received:
    4,593
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Just a side note, back in the tournament days of the seventies, Kyokushin guys always hit you extremely hard. But Shotokan guys, man, they tried to punch holes in you. I really believe that was their main goal. At lest in east coast tournaments. I fought too many of them to remember them all.

    I still wince thinking about them.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Trophy Points:
    238
    Location:
    New Iberia, Louisiana USA
    Yeah boy!! Ikken Hissatsu...it's a old concept but I think that's probably the number 1 takeaway I got from Shotokan training. Every strike was to finish the other guy. If I remember correctly it's means something along the lines of "one strike, one kill". More to our point of every strike thrown should be to finish the other guy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Mitlov

    Mitlov Green Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    How much contact is involved in a light contact tournament varies a lot based on what the referees will tolerate. High end stuff can still be pretty intense nowadays (especially when looking at highlight reels like in the original post):



    I think the rough and tumble "light contact" was a lot more common in the 80s than today, but I'm not sure it's gone.

    I haven't done a lot of karate competition, but from what I've done, I've had light contact matches that I really do consider light contact, all the way up to a "light contact" match where my opponent dislocated my shoulder.
     
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Green Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    ChrissyP: have got been following Karate Combat at all? It's a new full - contact karate league, primarily Shotokan folks.

     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. chrissyp

    chrissyp Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    33
    I love it! Id love to do it! But i dont think i meet their qualifications. Id love to see other orgs rise up and start doing this on lower scale
     
  18. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,574
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    Our observations, from our travels and son competing:

    1) USKA - United States Karate Alliance - We like this org the best so far and Jacob is a member. Originally, it was the US Karate Association started by Robert Trias and was the first karate association and was first org to host martial arts tournaments. Upon Trias passing away, it re-organized into the US Karate Alliance.

    It is open to all styles and does not require membership to compete.

    Point competition. For adults, rules allow medium to heavy contact to the body, medium contact to head and light contact to face. Basically, head contact is supposed to be controlled...if you draw blood or knock out your opponent you are DQ'd. Also groin contact is allowed. All strikes are scored 1 point as opposed to different strikes landed having different values. Matches are 5 point matches. Free Sparring with judges calling break when they see a point.....Head Gear, gloves, and Foot gear required.

    Hosts tournaments in Louisiana, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California


    2) PKC - Professional Karate Commission - Started by Glenn Keeney Looks to be modeled after the USKA with mostly the same rules and scoring.

    Hosts Tournaments in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania. Open to all styles and non-members.


    3) USKK - United States Karate-Do Kai - Started by Phillip Koeppel, Also, modeled after USKA with the same rules and scoring.

    Hosts Tournaments in Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and California. Also Co-Sanctions many tournaments with USKA.


    4) WKF - World Karate Federation - Affiliated with the Olympics.

    Styles recognized are Gōjū-ryū, Shitō-ryū, Shotokan and Wadō-ryū.

    Scoring is much different than the first 3 orgs- Punches are 1 point, kicks to body are 2 points, kicks to head are 3 points. Punches and kicks have to be thrown and brought back a certain way to score and competitors have to disengage when they have scored for the judges to score them. Amount of contact allowed is about the same as the first 3 orgs.

    More restrictions in what kind of sparring gear is allowed and type of Gi worn than the first 3. Open to non-members but they require techniques used to be done in the styles recognized above.


    5) NBL - National Blackbelt League - Sport Karate Org. Hosts tournaments nationwide. Rules seem to vary depending on area. Son only competed in a few of these and we didn't care for them as much. Lot of XMA influence.



    From what we have seen...USKA, USKK, PKC, and WKF tends to be much more traditional in style. NBL tends to be more XMA.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Green Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Yeah, I'd like to see it catch on a bit more, so that there's regional and local competitions with this rule set. I suspect perhaps 90% of karateka wouldn't want to actually compete under that rule set--the light-contact point-stop rules are a lot more accessible to a lot more people--but (a) I think it's good for the option to exist for the other 10%, and (b) even if folks don't actually compete in it, I think having the option out there could have a potential beneficial impact on in-class drilling and training.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,574
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    I really hope Karate Combat makes it. We have a few friends involved in it but also really enjoy watching it.

    They have an event coming up in two weeks in New York that should be fun to watch.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page