Protectionism, elitism, restrictiveness.

[Flatlander]

In my discussions and research it has come to light that it is not an uncommon occurance that instructors, "masters", whatever they need to be called practice this abhorrence to freedom and self discovery. My understanding is that there are people out there who will refuse the furtherance of training to a student who has sought either additional or supplementary training outside of their "home" systems or dojos.

For example. "Dick" trains under "Master X". "Dick" decides that he would like to supplement the style he is learning, and checks out the program at "dojo Y". "Master X" learns of "Dick's" explorations and tells him he is no loger welcome at "dojo X". Has anyone else ever heard of this practice? If you have a story to tell, please share it with us. The public has a right to know.

 

[terryl965]

Well I'm a instructor at my own school and if any of my student would like to get additional training that's great. I do not know all, i feel if a students is searching for the right path let them search. MA is a funning thing, you can join a style for 10 years and then wake up and feel you're missing something from your Art, the search starts over not that your style has changed but your body and mind has changed so you need to supplement your thought and body.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I encourage students to seek out instructors and other systems. I have some exceptions, however. They're as follows:

1.) If that other instructor is in competition with me locally, I'd prefer they choose between the two of us. It's an issue of business, not one of academic freedom or martial bigotry.

2.) If I know the instructor is unsafe or disreputable, then I ask my students to avoid him.

Other than that I have no problem with their exploration. I had a student come to me a long time ago and ask if he could study Muay Thai. I consented. He now heads up my Muay Thai program and is one of Ajarn Chai Sirisute's top instructors.

Three people who have earned black belts under me in Korean martial arts have gone on to get instructor certifications under Guro Dan Inosanto. Two of those three earned black belts from Remy Presas. Two of those three are instructors under Erik Paulson. Two of those three earned blue belts in BJJ from Marcello Ferriera. In each case it isn't the same two of the three, please note. I don't want you to think one of them is slacking.

The list goes on and on...

Had two students go to a TKD seminar with the Lopez brothers several weeks ago. I've got folks that have studied with Wally Jay, the Sayocs and their people, Herman Suwanda and his sister Ibu Rita, Jean-Jacques Machado, Larry Hartsell, Lao Ma, Jeff Westfall, Marco Ruas, Tim Hartman, Ed Melaugh, Jason Winkle, William Chen, and Leo Gaje. This isn't a complete list, either.

Some training came in seminars, some in camps, some in classes, some in private lessons.

I'd argue that this isn't bragging. I DIDN'T DO THE WORK. The students did the training and those excellent instructors listed did the teaching.

Here's where I will brag...it's made my school a superb environment for learning martial arts. I'm proud of the accomplishments of the instructors and students here. They've done a great job.



Regards,


Steve

 

[Sarah]

I can’t say I have heard of this happening first hand, but Ive heard rumours of it! I am however lucky enough to have a fantastic instructor at my main Dojo that is supportive of my secondary training.

 

[Adept]

I've never heard of this happening first hand. The schools in this area are all very liberal, and many students cross-train or supplement their arts.

 

[Mark Lynn]

In a round about way this happened to me. I started in TKD and moved relocated to a different city over 100 miles away. I still stayed in touch with my TKD instructor but I started attending a Wado school. Now occansionily I would go back home to visit my parents and I would set aside time for a work out with my TKD instructor.

One day we were at some function or another, my Wado instructor starts questioning me on what style would I teach and such, infering (if memory serves me right) pick one or the other. Although at this same time I was also going to seminars along the JKD path so I was bringing different ideas and stuff to the table as it was. To me it wasn't an issue I enjoyed the Wado better than the TKD, but I wasn't going to blow off what my TKD instructor taught me nor was I going to blow off what I had learned at the seminars as well.

However at my TKD instructors dojo (he taught at his house in what use to be a garage) we were encouraged to seek out other systems and bring the teaching back to the dojo. The idea was that it made the school and us better students/instructors. One went the japanese systems way getting BBs in Shotokan and Kendo, one loved Kenpo and he tested for his 1st dan in that last year (at 45 years old), one moved to Thai Chi, I went to Presas Arnis (both Kombatan and Modern Arnis) and Combatives with Hoch Hochheim earning BBs in those systems, and some stayed with kickboxing and sparring still training there 20 years later.

At New Years we get together and have a workout and party at the dojo, and get together with everyone. And some of us teach to share small portions of what we are doing now.

Mark

 

[RanaHarmamelda]

Kinda sorta has happened to me, and one reason I dropped TKD for now -- my last school, when I joined, told me 1) that I was no longer allowed to have any affiliation with my previous TKD school, despite being a black belt there, and 2) later on, I found out that we were not allowed to study additional arts, for whatever reason (was never explained to me).

Interestingly enough, the shotokan school I went to for about 6 months after I dropped TKD actively encouraged my jujutsu studies, and my instructor even encouraged me to keep up my TKD -- something which really impressed me.

So yeah -- it happens. I left my TKD school before I picked up jujutsu, so it didn't happen with me -- but they made it pretty clear that it would. *shrug*

 

[Sin]

My retirement job is to start a dojo, and I wouldn't have any problem with a student wanting to broaden there horizons at all.

But one thing i would suggest is not to skip around from class to class when a student is first getting started in Martial Arts. Reason for this is to not get the two styles mixed up and then going off doing something totally wrong/ differant. but this is not out of spite for the other schools this is only so that my student could learn the information properly.

 

[shesulsa]

The association (which I am NOT affiliated with) that heads up the style I study mandates that all students forsake any and all previous, current and future supplemental programs and training. This is ( I assume ) to forward the interests of filial piety and loyalty and to foster focus and concentration on bettering oneself intensely.

Since we are not members of that organization, we are free to study other styles, but only with the expressed permission of our instructor. Though my teacher is a dear man with a calm demeanor and who is very inclusive, his knowledge, skill, time, grade and service to others commands traditional respect, so we do ask before we pursue. His teacher consistently tells students of this style to "learn from many, but have one master."

Steve, you have given a fine example of the benefits of cross-training in other styles - your students have had excellent opportunities to learn from some prominent artists which not only gives them and their students a more well-rounded education, but also really makes you look good!

I hope to round out my martial education a bit more in the future, though my time right now does not allow it. That said, our style is so broad, I am very, very happy with one black rank where I am.

Good thread, Dan!

 

[TigerWoman]

We have this statement in our rules and regs.:
"If a student adopts a different technique from another club and the instructor disapproves of it, the student must disregard the technique or train a the club where he/she learned it"

So I take that to say, you can train elsewhere but if you learn something and integrate it into your technique without it being approved, you're in trouble with the master. I can see that it would lead to a more controlled curriculum.

I once sparred a foreign exchange student from Malaysia who liked to grab the foot. Well, we don't do that, it was unexpected and I went down. I think it would have been good to learn to block or be quicker but that is an example of what was disallowed. Also, we aren't allowed to trap during sparring. He recently decided to stop teaching wrist locks and take downs too and I would have liked to pursue that more even if its during self defense training not sparring. So our classes are limiting and seemingly getting more limited. TW

 

[Paul B]

Hi all,

I think it boils down to how you view yourself,and your school. It was mentioned earlier that due to business concerns,one would not recommend students elsewhere. (not picking on you in particular HHJH )

If you think of yourself as a MAist first,businessman second,I don't see the problem with "letting" students go. It's a path we're all on,and even if the road forks in places,its end is the same.

I know some people wouldn't want their students training elsewhere,and that to me puts up a red flag. Why? Are they insecure in their knowledge? Do they have a vendetta against the other teacher? All of my teachers have always told myself and other students.."Go.Learn.See what that style is about."

This is coming from Kempo,Aikido,to Hapkido teachers. That alone made me think..."Wow,I'm really lucky to have such good teachers!" In that they are so willing to give you that leeway to veer off on that fork for a while. Good teachers know that sometimes you don't need Kempo to move ahead....you might need Hapkido...or Aikido...or Judo..etc. Whatever it takes just as long as you keep moving forward. They are always confident that what they have taught you,and invested in you,will come to be a part of you,and that is something you can't train out of someone.

Putting the students needs first,before their own interests,is the mark of a great Sensei..:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I am going to be bold here, and I know most of you will disagree with me on this.

I think that generally speaking, most kinds of pigeon holding is done to propigate martial-cult-like behavior, to run a monopoly on the funds of the student, and to take pressure off the instuctor to do a good job.

What was done in the 80's (and probably the 70's and 60's, but I don't know) was that instructors from overseas built a faux tradition and faux "martial art values;" and one of these faux-values was that it was dishonerable to check out the competition.

I think that there are rare cases when it is legitimate for an instructor to traionly with them; and usually it involves private instruction, and is not done for capitalistic reasons. An example I can think of was when an old friend of mine studied gung-fu in china. The instructor didn't mind if he checked out other styles, but expected that his primary training remained with him. He was spending private sessions with this instructor 3 times a week, and was expected to practice 3 hours a day in this style. My friend wasn't really paying the instructor much money, and his time was occupied with this one instructor (who was noted as one of the best in the province) and style, so it made sense to not crosstrain anyways.

But usually, and especially in america and in a commercial school, there is no good reason to pigeonhold a student under the guise of false loyalties.

The way that I look at it, I treat the business part of my class as a purely free market capitalistic thing. I provide a service for a price. If you value my service, you'll stay with me. If someone else is a better fit then me, then you'll go with them. It is that simple. You may decide to train with me AND someone else. That is fine too. Now, I won't comprimise my values and certify someone to teach if they aren't ready; so if it takes them twice as long to get any certification from me because they are training elseware also, then so be it. That is there choice. However, it may take them twice as short too....one never can tell.

I just don't think it does anyone any good for me to restrict my members in that way...

Paul

 

[Ceicei]

When I was thinking of cross-training with Judo, I asked my Kenpo instructor. He said that I didn't need to ask him for permission though, but encouraged me to go ahead. He had Judo training previously and found it to be quite valuable. He told me I would become a better martial artist for taking up Judo. He already knew Kenpo is my first love and it will always remain my primary art.

- Ceicei

 

[ShotoSan]

I think you have seen one too many movies, most Masters will realize, what they have masterd is simply not enough. My current GrandMaster has over 22 degrees of black belt, and a yellow belt in Ninjitsu. If you have a master, and he only has 9 or 10 dan in that one martial art, and nothing else... id be a little concerend about his authenticity.

 

[Bod]

My last teacher has a 9th Dan in Judo - and nothing else except for schoolboy boing champion of West London or something. Yet he's totally legit.

But the 'treat a 9th Dan with suspicion' rule is a good rule of thumb.

 

[RRouuselot]

I think you have seen one too many movies, most Masters will realize, what they have masterd is simply not enough. My current GrandMaster has over 22 degrees of black belt, and a yellow belt in Ninjitsu. If you have a master, and he only has 9 or 10 dan in that one martial art, and nothing else... id be a little concerend about his authenticity.

And what was this guy saying about McDojos????
22 degrees of black belt......anybody else find that odd.
Yellow belt :lol: I wouldn't even begin to claim rank untila at least black belt....anything below that doesn't mean too much.

Why do I get the feeling our pal shotosan wasn't really here for the reasons he claimed

 

[Matt Stone]

I think you have seen one too many movies, most Masters will realize, what they have masterd is simply not enough.

And most "masters" would never allow themselves to be called "master."

My current GrandMaster has over 22 degrees of black belt, and a yellow belt in Ninjitsu.

Not content with "master," but he had to take up "GRANDmaster?" Wow. No ego on that one, is there?

If you have a master, and he only has 9 or 10 dan in that one martial art, and nothing else... id be a little concerend about his authenticity.

To quote Willy Wonka... "Wait. Reverse that. Thank you." If you have a teacher that alleges incredibly high ranks in more than one or two (at the most) arts, you're being lied to... At least you are being lied to if the teacher expects you to believe he actually put the time and effort into learning the art in question.

The only really reputable teachers I've run into had high grading in one art, or two to three at the most (and they were arts like karate and kobudo that are often part of the same syllabus of training). Never "twenty two degrees of black belt."

I've been unusually fortunate (or unfortunate) to have had the direct experience of knowing teachers who practice the same limiting mindset on their students. I'm not into dojo hopping, mind you, and I believe that someone should be at least of black belt level in their particular art before they go dancing in other locales. However, the teachers (almost always McDojos, with the exception of one whose dojo is authentic, training is authentic, he just has a weird attitude) are alway of questionable orientation.

My absolute favorite is the non-Asian teacher who tries to "out Asian" the Asians by saying this or that is honorable or dishonorable... "It is an honor for you to pick up my laundry," et cetera. Just gotta love 'em.

 

[An Eternal Student]

I live in Ireland, and as far as I know, none of that stuff happens over here.
We're pretty much encouraged to learn what we can.