Proof of a Higher Power

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, and--all in good fun--whaddya call somebody who goes to church on Sunday, says the words, and then spends Monday screwing over his competitors in business and laying off his employees? And whaddya call a President who endlessly nags about Christianity, orders a bombing raid that kills a baby girl, and expresses no remorse whatsoever?

 

[someguy]

Well I belive in a higher Power for a couple of reasons. First consider the implications of the not being one. God and evil really means very little. Life is for nothing. You live to not exist. "im sure some one will say something about that to prove me wrong or at least try.
The other reason is I belive is I was raised to and I don't have any reason to doubt it enough to change my veiws. This doesn't mean I don'tquestion them or they stay the same just that I never can give up being a Christian with out one huge reson to do so.

 

[heretic888]

Hey, and--all in good fun--whaddya call somebody who goes to church on Sunday, says the words, and then spends Monday screwing over his competitors in business and laying off his employees? And whaddya call a President who endlessly nags about Christianity, orders a bombing raid that kills a baby girl, and expresses no remorse whatsoever?

Uhhh.... wealthy?? :uhyeah:

Very sad things to contemplate, though...

 

[heretic888]

Well I belive in a higher Power for a couple of reasons. First consider the implications of the not being one. God and evil really means very little. Life is for nothing. You live to not exist.

The existence of a "Higher Power" (whatever one may mean by that) does not necessarily postulate any sort of great meaning, significance, or order to life. It just means you were created by something else... for whatever reasons.

 

[Nightingale]

MT MOD NOTE

Make sure the discussion stays on topic and refrain from attacks on individuals or groups.

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-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR

 

[nukes42]

[ If you beleive in a God, or like being, why? And what proof have you seen or learned of its/His existence? What makes you beleive]

now i dont belive in the normal god so to say, but i do belive that there is some thing that is out there just beyond our understanding. i mean look at the miricals of science and the universe, there are just to may questions of how is that possible and why did this happen and not that. i dont have any prof that i belive in something more powerful and wise. allthough that is the nature of faith is beliving in some thing with out having any proof.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I will say again if God does not exist. We as a race aka Human Beings would need to invent him to explain those things which are out of our current realm of understanding. To give us the Motive to do charitable work for fellow man, to make laws establish outlets to vent in our times of difficulty, a place to turn when horrible things happen and unexplained, to have order in some form in our lifes and in society as a whole.

God in any form or a higher power or force if you will is a neccessary component of being a Human Being.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Is there some type of transcendent power that connects existence? I'd like to think so, and think that it makes sense. However, I doubt it's in any personified god figure, and I damn sure don't think that the Judeo-Christian ego-projection God is it. Whatever higher power there might be, I believe it would have to be far more universal in nature then the culture-bound God that most speak of.

 

[Flatlander]

nukes42, welcome to Martial Talk! It's great to see someone jump right on in to the discussion! Please help yourself to the various forums, they're bursting at the seams with great information. If you have any questions, feel free to ask myself or anyone else. Enjoy your stay, and happy posting!

Dan Bowman
Martial Talk
-Moderator-

 

[TonyM.]

Giraffes!

 

[heretic888]

God in any form or a higher power or force if you will is a neccessary component of being a Human Being.

You might want to explain that to the thousands of atheists in the world that often act just as "human" as any true believer.

I think a "God" of some sort is necessary for most people --- in the very broad sense of "God" being any kind of ideal, activity, or belief that one adheres to in a "religious" fashion. This can range from science to art to Christianity to even a belief in atheism itself.

But, the notion that a belief in some sort of personified higher-power Uber Dude in the sky is somehow required for human beings to "be human" is the height of folly.

 

[heretic888]

By the way, welcome to MT, Nukes. :asian:

 

[RandomPhantom700]

To give us the Motive to do charitable work for fellow man, to make laws establish outlets to vent in our times of difficulty, a place to turn when horrible things happen and unexplained, to have order in some form in our lifes and in society as a whole.[\QUOTE]

So, you believe that people must believe in some deity in order to make laws? Or believe and partake in charity? I agree with heretic; there are plenty of people who believe in law and charity who do not believe in some God up there. Besides, if the only reason you partake in charity or follow the law is fear of divine punishment, is that really any humane or moral reasoning?

 

[parmandjack]

Well....

I've got to step in at this point and state that the arrogance pervasive throughout all the posts from heretic is making me want to vomit...

I for one Tigerwomen, support you 100%, and I will also state emphatically that you are correct in that all other religions are on the wrong paths to salvation... only through a relationship with Jesus Christ will a person be saved.

To say otherwise (ie: they are all equal etc...) would be to say that Jesus Christ was either a liar or a lunatic, because He Himself CLAIMED to be the ONLY WAY... and if I agree that other religions are equally true (inferring that Jesus lied or was a lunatic), I thereby declare that the basis of our faith was not reliable...

And by the way, all other religions claim this exclusivity also... Muslims claim only Mohammad and Allah are true... Hindu's claim that their religion is true by stating that there are many gods etc, thereby inferring that my God was not telling me the truth in His Revelation...etc... anyone that states that their way is correct (as they all do), infer exclusive knowledge of the correct "way", inferring that all other understanding other than theirs is incorrect (regardless of claims of inclusiveness).

Everyone cannot be right at the same time when the claims are polar opposites, 180 degrees diametrically opposed.. and yes heretic... Christianity IS in total disagreement with other religions... regardless of your shallow claim of knowledge of its extreme similarities... Christianity (true biblically based Christianity) claims that salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ - other religions say its not.. how do you pretend that there is harmony in those two claims? There is none...

Either one party is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong.. but not everyone can be right.

And while TigerWomen may NOT be able to debate Christianity (as she stated) with you heretic... I CAN.

I am a biblical scholar and a student of eschatology...and YES... I CAN provide you with factual evidences supporting the historical, scientific and supernatural claims of the Bible, both Old AND New Testaments...

The greater issue though is... WILL I.... and the answer is NO... While we as Christians are commanded by God to preach His Word and to tell everyone of Jesus, we also learn that it is not us who gets you saved or moves you to believe... it is only by His Will as to whether or not you belong to Jesus... We are also told to "kick the dust from our feet" as we leave those who were not resceptive to His Truth...you my un-saved friend, are one of those... and I refuse to enter into a debate with a close-minded individual such as yourself, who instead of being willing to listen to and at the very least investigate the supporting evidences offered, instead chooses a path of confrontational antagonism neatly wrapped in a blanket of arrogant rhetoric, attempting to gain the higher moral grounds based on a misguided belief in modern huminism etc...

SO while you may be able to "Brow Beat" a wonderful loving mother newly converted through her daughters deliverance, there are those of us who would quickly have you reduced to rattling of old and overused debate items ad-nauseum....

As for your "scientific" methods... using those tools I would wager money (if I was a betting man) that you have therefore NEVER loved anyone, or felt compassion for another human being... because using the "scientific method of reasoning" your "feelings" are non-measureable and therefore non-quantifiable... and therefore by your argument, are not valid...

As for your "Logic" (notice the quote/unquote) that now gives you knowledge that feeds your arrogance... 5 honest minutes of searching the internet will give you months of data to read that will easily and quickly shatter your religious beliefs... and don't think for a second that your atheism is anything other than another form of religion...

Anyways.. my vomiting feelings are gone now... but I have had just enough of your arrogance... If you choose not to believe, I don't care... but don't belittle others...

Look at it this way...When it all ends.... If we are wrong (which we are not), we have lost nothing because there is nothing.. but if you are wrong... you have lost EVERYTHING, because there will be an eternity waiting for you.

OH AND BY THE WAY heretic...

...the onus, or burden of proof is NOT on us, but on you... you can provide "0" evidences supporting your claim that there is no God other than personal opinions based on your own morals (where did those morals come from BTW?), but I could inundate your mail server with proofs FOR HIS Existance...

My heart goes out to you heretic, as you are lost at this time, and don't even realize it

God still loves you heretic...

Jesus Christ, who is GOD, LORD, KING and SAVIOUR of the World

...may you find your way to Him.

 

[MisterMike]

artyon:

 

[TigerWoman]

I finally read this thread after I left it.

Peachmonkey, no the frantic room cleaning was for nothing. Her allergic test came back negative and showed she had no allergic reaction to dust, mites, pollen etc. She stopped her meds during a very windy, dirty camping trip unknown to me. She has never had any symptoms since...NONE and immediately went back to playing her flute full force, in a timespan from Friday having difficulty breathing to Monday being healed. God was there for her, there is NO doubt in my mind. It was not about my prayer or the prayers of others, they just showed God how much we loved her.

Parmandjack, well-said!
artyon:

 

[michaeledward]

...the onus, or burden of proof is NOT on us, but on you... you can provide "0" evidences supporting your claim that there is no God other than personal opinions based on your own morals (where did those morals come from BTW?), but I could inundate your mail server with proofs FOR HIS Existance...

Spoken as one who does not understand the scientific definition of 'proof'.

Go in Peace!

 

[donald]

Heretic et al,

I have to disagree with most of what you said regarding historical proofs from the Bible, both the old and new testaments. One glaring instance in the O.T., is GOD's promise to restore Israel as a nation which was fufilled after many years of naysaying in 1948. There are quite a few instances in the N.T.. Such as the destruction of Solomon's temple by Rome. The fact of the matter is as previously stated. Knowing GOD, is by faith. If our trusting in HIS exsistance(sp?) is by what we see. Then its not truly "faith". Even though GOD's word The Bible states that creation itself testifies that HE is real. In the end you either accept it, or don't. I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is LORD, and that HE spoke the absolute truth, and is still speaking through HIS word the Bible. May HE bless, and keep all who are here...
Salute in Christ

 

[Flatlander]

Well....

I've got to step in at this point and state that the arrogance pervasive throughout all the posts from heretic is making me want to vomit....

It's great to see your ability to show compassion.

you are correct in that all other religions are on the wrong paths to salvation... only through a relationship with Jesus Christ will a person be saved.

Saved from what?

Everyone cannot be right at the same time when the claims are polar opposites, 180 degrees diametrically opposed.. and yes heretic... Christianity IS in total disagreement with other religions... regardless of your shallow claim of knowledge of its extreme similarities... Christianity (true biblically based Christianity) claims that salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ - other religions say its not.. how do you pretend that there is harmony in those two claims? There is none...

You claim to be a biblical scholar, so I'll assume that you have a reasonable understanding of its content. Tell me, do you feel the value of the publication, in terms of how it relates to Christianity, is the literal translation of the original Hebrew text, or the underlying message? Do you really believe that the underlying messages of any other positive spiritual religeons are that diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity?

Have you studied them, or are you guessing?

Either one party is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong.. but not everyone can be right.

Sounds to me like you focus on a lot of literal references.....

Jesus taught using the parable, why do you suppose this was?

I am a biblical scholar and a student of eschatology...and YES... I CAN provide you with factual evidences supporting the historical, scientific and supernatural claims of the Bible, both Old AND New Testaments...

The greater issue though is... WILL I.... and the answer is NO...

Then why bring it up?

and I refuse to enter into a debate with a close-minded individual such as yourself,

1. That's what the Study is for. If you don't want to play, then don't get in the sandbox.

2. The Study is not intended to be a place where you single out somone with whom you disagree and insult their intelligence. Let's stop that right now. K?

Back to the discussion...

As for your "Logic" (notice the quote/unquote) that now gives you knowledge that feeds your arrogance... 5 honest minutes of searching the internet will give you months of data to read that will easily and quickly shatter your religious beliefs... and don't think for a second that your atheism is anything other than another form of religion...

As a biblical scholar, I presume you have developed the ability to analyze text, in order to interpret the meaning of said text. You might think about applying that skill to more of heretic888's posts. I don't think aethiest is an approprite interpretation.

Anyways.. my vomiting feelings are gone now... but I have had just enough of your arrogance... If you choose not to believe, I don't care... but don't belittle others...

Matthew 7:12

...the onus, or burden of proof is NOT on us, but on you...

Actually, its on everyone who posts. Look at the thread title.

you can provide "0" evidences supporting your claim that there is no God other than personal opinions based on your own morals (where did those morals come from BTW?), but I could inundate your mail server with proofs FOR HIS Existance...

Again, then why bring it up if you choose not to reveal your evidence? I'm rather interested to see what evidence you can report, and how you may justify it as more reliable or sufficient than the very evidence of heretic's that you seem to refute as inapplicable to this type of knowledge.

 

[michaeledward]

you can provide "0" evidences supporting your claim that there is no God

parmandjack is exactly correct in his statement. I can provide NO EVIDENCE to support that a supreme being does not exist.

but I could inundate your mail server with proofs FOR HIS Existance...

But here, parmandjack, begins to get in his own way. He could certianly inundate my mail server, but he could not do it with PROOF of the existance of a supreme being. Anecdotal evidence in not evidence at all, a nice story perhaps, but not evidence.

If evidence actually existed to support either position, it would indeed be news, and indeed, mail servers around the world would be busy.

They call it faith. I will not ask you to abandon your faith. Don't ask me to abandon my ability to reason.

Mike