Private Money and Public Figures

[Sukerkin]

This is an 'interesting' read:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/10/the_corfu_story.html

And politicians wonder why we don't trust them?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

This is an 'interesting' read:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/10/the_corfu_story.html

And politicians wonder why we don't trust them?

They know exactly why we dont trust them.

They just dont care.

 

[Sukerkin]

Sadly valid I think, Kenpo .

 

[theletch1]

An interesting read, Mark, but unfortunately nothing new there. For a favor to an American friend, could you explain/compare the parties involved (Tori, Conservative et al) with the US dems and reps to make it a bit easier to understand? You seem to have a better grasp on US politics than many Americans do so I hope this won't be too much of an effort.

 

[terryl965]

It is interesting but it still the same old same old, when are there really going to be any chnges?

 

[Sukerkin]

I'll certainly try to give a thumbnail of the political parties in England for you, Jeff. Obviously things will be vastly more complicated and less clear-cut that the sketches I can give in a brief post but hopefully the 'primary colours' view will give the right impression.

We actually have a three party system here in the UK but most of the C20th saw us on a two-party see-saw, just like the States has to endure.

We have Labour, supposedly the party of the working man and very decidedly Socialist (not to be confused with Communist, as I have seen many times here that American's seem to see the two as the same and they are not). Labour, clearly is Left Wing and (should) stand for government influence within society and the economy to promote the welfare of the 'common man' and rein in the excesses of the rich 'ruling class'. It is in fact quietly true that under Labour the gap between rich and poor has slightly narrowed by some measures but we are still far worse than many in Europe in that regard.

A common taunt about New Labour is that they have really become the New Right as they are far more attuned to the needs of business and the upper echelons of society than they are the workers. As an economist, I can see some value in that to the extent that if the economy is not vibrant then noone benefits but do feel that Labour has lost it's way.

In the middle, we have the Liberals (or, more properly since the '80's, Liberal Democrats). They are the party of intelligent, consensus lead, government. Rationalism rather than ideology is supposed to inform their decision making and they have come to be seen as somewhat wishy-washy and 'standing for nothing' because of that very flexability. They are also seen, rightly or wrongly, as the party of the Middle Class and concommitantly espousing the social views of 'Middle England'. This is odd because at the core they are less 'nanny state' and more about people taking responsibility for themselves and their communities, with government on hand to help if necessary.

A great many in England are actually Liberal in their views, caring not if a solution comes from socialist or capitalist camps as long as it works. That 'common sense' approach is why an awful lot of county councils, the local government branches that manage 'local' affairs, tend to have a Liberal component, if not a majority.

They have been frozen out of central government for a long time tho'. For so long in fact that it is not commonly known that Churchill was a Liberal MP before the war and was a 'convert' to Conservatism primarily because it was a platform to power for him. The irony is that if all the people who would vote Liberal if they thought the party had a chance to get into office did vote Liberal then there is a good chance that they would :lol:.

On the Right, we have the Conservatives (aka the Tory Party). They are firmly in the camp of the wealthy and the 'ruling classes'. They are likewise firm believers in the sanctity of the Market to provide for the needs of the rich (which indeed it does) and espouse the view that what is good for the wealthy is good for everyone else - which is why they were the ones to introduce monetarist economic policies to Britain.

Under Thatcher, they were very worryingly far right in their views and analogies to the Social Democratic Party of pre-war germany were not uncommon. That was particularly so in the aftermath of violent repression of the miner's strike, where comparison was made to the Peterloo Martyrs, such was the naked authoritarian fist on show.

Now, they are seemingly spent as a political force, in part because they used up all their political capital under Der Neuer Fuhrer Thatcher. Without her undoubted political charisma to bind things together, the party has faltered to the extent that many doubt that they are a serious opponent to Labour (even given the current disaffection).

Comparing these parties to the American groupings, then the obvious thing to say is that Labour is equivalent to Democrat and Tory is equivalent to Republican.

But it's not that simple .

Altho' your Democrats certainly have some socialist (small 's') component to them, they are more close to Liberal than they are Labour but lack the Liberals core quality of consensus. Likewise, altho' they are Ultra Right in some ways (with their new economic imperialism that sees them thrashing about the world nicking stuff under the guise of being the Global Policeman), the Republican's also have some elements of Liberal in them because of their mantra of 'personal responsibility'.

I hope that helped a bit? I can only bleat that any confusion is "Not my fault", as Han Solo would say. Politicians as a 'class' have come to be very homogenous in recent times because, at the end of the day, they only exist to serve their ultimate masters, which is corporate business interests.

Parties might try to dress that very real 'pig' in all manner of garb and make-up but the ultimate truth is there. Money makes the world go round and who has the most calls the shots.

To end, here are the URL's for the various party web sites:

http://www.conservatives.com/

http://www.liberal.org.uk/ or http://www.libdems.org.uk/ depending on which 'flavour' you feel is the 'real' one (Liberal Democrats being the 'official' one)

http://www.labour.org.uk/home

 

[theletch1]

Mark, that was a brilliant explanation as far as I'm concerned. I realize that I led your thread off topic and for that I apologize but certainly thank you for the break down. From your description I would (ironically) have to consider myself a Liberal were I a citizen there while considering myself a conservative with libertarian leanings here in this country.

 

[Sukerkin]

A pleasure, Jeff; glad I could help somewhat.

Don't worry about the slight 'bend' in thread path. If it helps to understand the machinations that were going on on that boat then it is, sort of {} on topic.