Principles vs. Techniques

[marvin8]

Principle is abstract. Technique is concrete.

"Principles are ideas which lead to success. They are logical explanations of how and why things work – or don’t. If a principle is true and it is applied correctly, it results in success.

Principles are ‘WHY’ techniques work – or do not, and they tell you ‘HOW’ you can make them work for you. Without this understanding, most of your efforts are wasted. Knowing techniques isn’t enough. You need to know why and how they work, when to use them, and how to make them work for you. There are principles that are applications of the laws of physics and apply to all martial arts [and fighting]."

For example, the principle "bait". You drop arms to bait for punch. You raise arms to bait for kick.

A fighting principle "lure" is to lead your opponent. Dropping or raising your arms may not lead an opponent to where you can successfully attack. Only drilling raising or dropping your arms can be a waste of time, without an understanding of other principles and movements. (Some fighters may already be following principles without knowing it.)

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To me, it'a Martial Arts, not Martial Paint By The Numbers.
In striking arts, I don't think people of different sizes and personalities should all move in the same way. Their principles may be the same, but not necessarily their movements.

And definitely not they way they fight.

This is an excellent point. To me the ultimate goal is not technique A to technique B, it is an expression of my humanity and potential. You can tell my brothers and I had the same teachers but the way we each express it is definitely on an individual level. I don’t plan techniques, I respond to dynamics.

 

[windwalker099]

. Principles are foundational beliefs, doctrines are organized sets of teachings, and theories, explanatory frameworks that provide explanations for the why, what, and how.

One might look at the question within the frame work of

Principles, foundational beliefs.

For example Tibetan White Crane / Hop gar

• Chan (殘, cán): Ruthlessness – Approach combat with unwavering determination. Weed out opponents completely. Don’t underestimate them.
• Sim (閃, shǎn): To Evade – Maintain balance and fluidity. Move like a wheel to avoid confrontation. Lateral movements and body angling are key.
• Chuen (穿, chuān): To Pierce – Exploit transitional moments. Seize opportunities when the opponent extends or withdraws.
• Jeet (截, jié): To Intercept – Anticipate and stop the enemy’s actions. Softness conquers hardness; strength exploits weaknesses. Judge motives to intercept effectively.

Techniques, organized in a doctrine within a structured framework of training based on applied principles foundational beliefs
Exemplified through "styles or methods" …

Examples of distinctions between what are called internal / external practices / approaches

Internal “Use the body “ indirectly /conduit” to express force within the body through a contact point.

External “Use the body “directly / collision” to express force directly with the body at a contact point.


Both methods can utilize the same "principles," each method involves distinct training to effectively employ the strategies enabled by the techniques.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

. Principles are foundational beliefs, doctrines are organized sets of teachings, and theories, explanatory frameworks that provide explanations for the why, what, and how.

One might look at the question within the frame work of

Principles, foundational beliefs.

For example Tibetan White Crane / Hop gar

• Chan (殘, cán): Ruthlessness – Approach combat with unwavering determination. Weed out opponents completely. Don’t underestimate them.
• Sim (閃, shǎn): To Evade – Maintain balance and fluidity. Move like a wheel to avoid confrontation. Lateral movements and body angling are key.
• Chuen (穿, chuān): To Pierce – Exploit transitional moments. Seize opportunities when the opponent extends or withdraws.
• Jeet (截, jié): To Intercept – Anticipate and stop the enemy’s actions. Softness conquers hardness; strength exploits weaknesses. Judge motives to intercept effectively.

Techniques, organized in a doctrine within a structured framework of training based on applied principles foundational beliefs
Exemplified through "styles or methods" …

Examples of distinctions between what are called internal / external practices / approaches

Internal “Use the body “ indirectly /conduit” to express force within the body through a contact point.

External “Use the body “directly / collision” to express force directly with the body at a contact point.


Both methods can utilize the same "principles," each method involves distinct training to effectively employ the strategies enabled by the techniques.

Good solid explanation, I agree.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Principles are ideas which lead to success.

Do you think the "silk reeling - body push/pull arm" is principle?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Principles are ideas which lead to success.

Sometime a principle in one MA system may be violated in another MA system.

For example, in some MA systems, there is a "1 arm" principle that your left arm, body, and right arm are united as 1 arm. When you punch your right arm, you pull back your left arm, your right arm, right shoulder, and left shoulder should form a straight line.

This principle has been violated by may MA systems with 90-degree square shoulder punch.

 

[windwalker099]

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tai Chi and Qigong, as well as all Chinese martial arts, begin training by copying and repeating techniques. Over time, these techniques become internalized and yield what is known as “gong” — the same word as “gong fu” (kung fu). This kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.

The biggest mistake beginners make is to focus on the art intellectually and to try and understand or rationalize the principles of the art before being able to express them. It is good to understand what the principles are as a roadmap but no amount of “understanding” makes up for “perception”. It can also cause problems if there is a mistake in understanding because the student will miss or resist the correct training results later.

“If you want what I have, then do what I do.”

This teaching is easy to understand and easy to follow. The teacher says, “If you want what I have, then do what I do.” You must copy the teacher’s techniques diligently, precisely and accurately, trust the teacher and be patient to achieve results. This is difficult to understand in the beginning because it can take years to achieve results. So you must find a teacher who is both knowledgeable and virtuous in his conduct and you must follow him for as long as you can.

What do you think? What is more important? To understand the principles, or to perform the techniques? Are they really two separate things?

First, Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work”

As for "Do what I do"….. no two people are the same so it is impossible for everyone to strictly do what the shifu does

 

[Xue Sheng]

Similarly in Xingyiquan during pao quan (similar move, for comparison) we add a move to turn the fists before the strike. Both modifications seem to add time in the beginning, like a pause, but after a while you just perform the movement the original way but you have a mental moment to allow yourself to evaluate if you really want to hurt the other person.

Could you explain this further as it applies to Xingyiquan. Especially the bit about turn the fist

 

[Appledog]

First, Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work”

As for "Do what I do"….. no two people are the same so it is impossible for everyone to strictly do what the shifu does

Well, it does, but the word gong itself has a special meaning, ex. "gong li quan" or "yi qi yi gong". Not necessarily the meaning in "gong fu". What I meant was, what was "gong" on a fundamental level, ex. one gong vs 10 techniques, or to have technique but not gong, or gong but not technique.

Could you explain this further as it applies to Xingyiquan. Especially the bit about turn the fist

Sure, doing pao quan there is a mental click between the block and the punch. First you mentally block then you mentally punch. It happens at the same time, but at first you can slow it down. This will let you stop the punch later if you don't want to hurt someone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, it does, but the word gong itself has a special meaning, ex. "gong li quan" or "yi qi yi gong". Not necessarily the meaning in "gong fu". What I meant was, what was "gong" on a fundamental level, ex. one gong vs 10 techniques, or to have technique but not gong, or gong but not technique.

Chinese characters please

Sure, doing pao quan there is a mental click between the block and the punch. First you mentally block then you mentally punch. It happens at the same time, but at first you can slow it down. This will let you stop the punch later if you don't want to hurt someone.

Thank You

 

[Appledog]

Chinese characters please


Thank You

Gong Li Quan (功力拳, gōnglì quán)?

練拳不練功, 到老一場空 (Liàn quán bù liàngōng, dào lǎo yīchǎngkōng)?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Gong Li Quan (功力拳, gōnglì quán)?

That is just Kung fu, boxing

練拳不練功, 到老一場空 (Liàn quán bù liàngōng, dào lǎo yīchǎngkōng)?

This one is more of an acronym that if I am reading it right just says boxing without Kung Fu will give you nothing until old

But then my character reading is not so good, need to run both past my wife, will get back to you on thins

 

[Appledog]

That is just Kung fu, boxing

This one is more of an acronym that if I am reading it right just says boxing without Kung Fu will give you nothing until old

But then my character reading is not so good, need to run both past my wife, will get back to you on thins

Sure, but why are you asking this, and, get back to me about what?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sure, but why are you asking this, and, get back to me about what?

Asking for clarification and getting back to you on what my wife says it actually is. Because at this point all tjhose are actually telling me is that Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work” and without that you have nothing. It is not giving me the original translations you posted

 

[Appledog]

Asking for clarification and getting back to you on what my wife says it actually is. Because at this point all tjhose are actually telling me is that Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work” and without that you have nothing. It is not giving me the original translations you posted

Ok.. I don't understand what you are asking for, but I hope the Chinese characters helped.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ok.. I don't understand what you are asking for, but I hope the Chinese characters helped.

I asked because I do not agree with your translation. But I an willing to admit I might be wrong, so I needed charactres

I am not trying to be argumentative or a pain, but my background is telling me it is not correct. However I asked for characters because Chinese characters show actual meaning and wthout those translations can be wrong. But understand all my background here is Northern China and Mandarin,

 

[Appledog]

I asked because I do not agree with your translation. But I an willing to admit I might be wrong, so I needed charactres

I am not trying to be argumentative or a pain, but my background is telling me it is not correct. However I asked for characters because Chinese characters show actual meaning and wthout those translations can be wrong. But understand all my background here is Northern China and Mandarin,

Well I am not sure if you are right or wrong, but I don't think I translated anything. So I thing it's just "one of those things"

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tai Chi and Qigong, as well as all Chinese martial arts, begin training by copying and repeating techniques. Over time, these techniques become internalized and yield what is known as “gong” — the same word as “gong fu” (kung fu). This kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.

Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work”

This phrase 練拳不練功, 到老一場空 (Liàn quán bù liàngōng, dào lǎo yīchǎngkōng). Basically means if you train Kung Fu without training internal, you end with nothing in old age.

Does not change the translation of Kung Fu to what you originally stated

 

[Holmejr]

I would imagine that most all arts are like this. In music and art most avant-garde artist start with classical training. Moving freely without thinking of technique is the ultimate goal. Sometimes I can actually pull it off…