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RCastillo
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- Thread Starter
- #21
All you math guys, OUTTA HERE! next thing you know, Mr. Parsons will come in here, and I'll flunk again!
Randy Strausbaugh
Master Black Belt
I've spent too many years away from an academic atmosphere to effectively argue the math, but I would like to post this for consideration.
From what I've seen, some (not all) Kenpo practitioners sacrifice not power, but penetration in their zeal to acquire blinding speed. While the techniques may be thrown with all of the proper body mechanics, in seeking to achieve extreme speed practitioners may shortchange their technique. In order to blast in tech#2, they sometimes pull back tech#1 too soon. Time, practice, good instruction, and experimentation with striking objects such as heavy bags and focus mits will reveal if the strike is effective. This is just part of the ongoing learning process. It's similar to throwing the twist in a punch. Some throw it too soon, others too late. Proper practice will eventually refine the technique to an acceptable degree. Of course, improvement is always possible. After twenty-eight years, I'm still working on improving speed/power and still fine-tuning my punch. I'll probably never get to perfection, but staying on the path is what's important, in my humble opinion. :asian:
From what I've seen, some (not all) Kenpo practitioners sacrifice not power, but penetration in their zeal to acquire blinding speed. While the techniques may be thrown with all of the proper body mechanics, in seeking to achieve extreme speed practitioners may shortchange their technique. In order to blast in tech#2, they sometimes pull back tech#1 too soon. Time, practice, good instruction, and experimentation with striking objects such as heavy bags and focus mits will reveal if the strike is effective. This is just part of the ongoing learning process. It's similar to throwing the twist in a punch. Some throw it too soon, others too late. Proper practice will eventually refine the technique to an acceptable degree. Of course, improvement is always possible. After twenty-eight years, I'm still working on improving speed/power and still fine-tuning my punch. I'll probably never get to perfection, but staying on the path is what's important, in my humble opinion. :asian:
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MisterMike
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- Thread Starter
- #23
That's the thing though, we studied inanimate objects, which cannot feel pain.
I agree, but to put together a study of this magnitude would require a substantial effort. I guess I was looking for "real-life" experience. But it seems there are 2 schools of thought on this. One for speed, and the other for proper mechanics/power.
Thanks,
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M F
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- #24
I think you may have forgotten the third school of thought on this one. The one that says that speed + proper mechanics = more power than either alone.
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Kenpo Yahoo
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- Thread Starter
- #25
Randy Strausbaugh- excellent post
Now there is a good equation to remember.
Well what's great about kenpo is that a "study of this magnitude" only yields results if you can actually WORK the physics. This is to say, that in the realm of kenpo all your book knowledge means jack-crap unless you can actually put it to the edge of the hand and foot (so to speak). I enjoy talking about the physics of kenpo, but physics is merely a mathematical model used to describe an event. Regardless of mathematical understanding, this event will still occur. However it is much easier to duplicate a specific event when you do understand what's happening.
just my thoughts.
Now there is a good equation to remember.
Well what's great about kenpo is that a "study of this magnitude" only yields results if you can actually WORK the physics. This is to say, that in the realm of kenpo all your book knowledge means jack-crap unless you can actually put it to the edge of the hand and foot (so to speak). I enjoy talking about the physics of kenpo, but physics is merely a mathematical model used to describe an event. Regardless of mathematical understanding, this event will still occur. However it is much easier to duplicate a specific event when you do understand what's happening.
just my thoughts.
don bohrer
Brown Belt
Mike, sometimes yes.
But, I must stress the purpose of every move in a technique is not to hit with power, but rather to manipulate and control our opponent. Issuing power comes from a combination of the basics of karate: strong stance, posture, effective movement patterns, relaxation, strength, timing and strong will or spirit. If you use to much speed and cause a break down in one of these principles then power does suffer.
I like what an Aidiko Instructor said in Budo magazine. He said technique should be continuous and unbroken so you allow no chance for your opponent to counter. To much speed however can break the rhythm of a technique and prevent you from properly executing it. In speed drills we often don't see the punctuation that makes a technique work. Punctuation would be the slowing down, speeding up, and re-adjusting to match the situation and reactions our opponent. It's what you have to do to make technique work. Speed drills tend to ignore this.
Mike you know the answer to this one! Excessive power can kill technique just like to much speed can. Kenpo is not only about speed but also about choosing the right tool for the job. A backfist for example properly executed contains the right mixture of speed, mass, and power for a backfist. Just like a properly executed reverse punch contains a different mixture of those attributes. Speed and power are both control tools when used at the right time and in the right combination.
don
Doc
Senior Master
Of course.
Properly executed movements do not always, nor should they require "full body mass." Blunt force trauma, although efective, is the lowest level of execution and is a method that is available to anyone of any age, skilled or not. Training to simply hit "quicker and harder" is to ignore the higher eschelon of any art, kenpo included.
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dcence
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- Thread Starter
- #28
Good thing 2 of the 3 people in those video are experienced security and the other trains cops. Their real-life experience together is more than what you sometimes find in the black belt division at tournaments. Having worked out with all three, I know sometimes pink hands lead to black and blue bodies. The 1st black has more real-life experience than some of today's association heads.
There is a time for penetration and a time for pulling. Between training partners the latter is usually appreciated.
This is exactly right. Speed without proper mechanics isn't much better than the best mechanics in the world without the speed to get to the target. Some (not all) diminish the need for tremendous speed because they lack it. (Me, I don't have it, but aspire.
) Between a fast fighter and a larger slower attacker, give me the larger slower one.If you ever saw Mr. Parker move, it was fast -- I mean fast. His blackbelts I have seen as well. I never heard him say, "you really ought to slow that down a little." If I remember correctly in Mr. Parker's principles for improved techniques, speed was one of the first priorities and came BEFORE power. People react faster than you think they will, in fact you are always behind if you even have to think about it.
Derek
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MartialArtsGuy
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- Thread Starter
- #29
Doc
In your opinion, what is the higher eschelon of an art?
In your opinion, what is the higher eschelon of an art?
Doc
Senior Master
It has always been promoted in the martial arts that true "masters" get the most done with the least effort, and have the ability to modulate and control destruction. Subdueing without injury or complete and deadly destruction as they desire. The latter is relatively easy. Anyone can pound your head until you die, even if they have no skill, so what's special about being a black belt?
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MartialArtsGuy
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- #31
Excellent Doc
Thank you sir.
I think it was best for everyone to hear it from you, rather than from me.
Thank you sir.
I think it was best for everyone to hear it from you, rather than from me.
bdparsons
Black Belt
Originally posted by RCastillo
All you math guys, OUTTA HERE! next thing you know, Mr. Parsons will come in here, and I'll flunk again!
(Or that other Parsons guy?)
Bill Parsons
Doc
Senior Master
Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy
Excellent Doc
Thank you sir.
I think it was best for everyone to hear it from you, rather than from me.
Well Sir, if you think about it -
The evolution of mass martial arts in this country was, and to a certain extent with the general public, still is based on some form of "competition." "Competition is about bigger faster stronger, and therefore they think more "devestating."
There is still a tendancy among those who should know better to base ones prowess on ones ability to "spar" which they call "fighting." Of course it is not fighting because fighting has no rules, and therefore circumstances change significantly. Techniques a person might try in a sparring match, he would not consider in a "real fight."
But that is how the art is "marketed" and competition skills somehow equate to "fighting ability" for many.
Although I am not discounting such learned skills, they are a loooong way from knowledgeable matial arts. How about Sapp? Ex-football player who in less than a year is the biggest thing in competition. Little skill, but plenty of size, and strength.
Most of the next generation of "masters" made their reps in competition in the sixties and seventies. The previous generation of masters, including Ed Parker and others, did not believe in sparring beyond a very small part of the curriculum.
But then again in proliferation, marketing is extremely important. Look what the Gracie's did. "All fights go to the ground." Not!
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MisterMike
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- Thread Starter
- #34
Thank you for all of your help so far. I've read some really good responses. There seems to be a couple of schools of thought regarding Kenpo techniques and I think that these can be taylored to the individual.
1. Giving priority to Speed. It's good to stay ahead in the technique, controlling your opponent yet having the ability to change the technique when necessary.
2. Giving priority to Power. It's power that will ultimately hurt and break your opponent. By using power with controlled speed, your strikes will not get ahead of your opponent's body reactions.
It seems quite logical then, that there are graduations between these 2 styles, and it is really up to the practitioner to decide:
a) what works best for them, depending on their physical makeup
b) what works best on the attacker, who could be skilled/unskilled/small/large/etc.
I think that training the same way on the same opponents will ineviteably work against you. This be knownst now, it opens a rather large window for us to look. And this is only within Kenpo. There are other styles that do not even strike, and I'm sure my summation will only change over time.
1. Giving priority to Speed. It's good to stay ahead in the technique, controlling your opponent yet having the ability to change the technique when necessary.
2. Giving priority to Power. It's power that will ultimately hurt and break your opponent. By using power with controlled speed, your strikes will not get ahead of your opponent's body reactions.
It seems quite logical then, that there are graduations between these 2 styles, and it is really up to the practitioner to decide:
a) what works best for them, depending on their physical makeup
b) what works best on the attacker, who could be skilled/unskilled/small/large/etc.
I think that training the same way on the same opponents will ineviteably work against you. This be knownst now, it opens a rather large window for us to look. And this is only within Kenpo. There are other styles that do not even strike, and I'm sure my summation will only change over time.
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
Vlad has a new strikes video out if you'd like to look at the way the Russians strike and see how you could incorporate it in to your kenpo. They have a sample clip if you would like to look:
Strikes clip
Strikes clip
... in that speed and power are both important, but knowledge of how is not as important as the knowledge of why. (Forgive me if I am off target here .... just a little pun.)
No matter how fast you are, you have to know where to strike, and in what manner to effectively disable an opponent. Reference someone my size cracking an opponent's sternum, as v. someone about 110 lbs. sticking their finger in an opponent's eye up to the knuckle (yes, I know this is graphic, but I am in the middle of doing a 6-week women's self-defense seminar right now, and this example is a tactical example). How about a half-fist or tiger's mouth to the throat with 14 or so lbs. of pressure, correctly applied?
Power is much less of an issue, although we should all strive to maximize the relaxed tesion-relaxation whipping, exploding power that was Mr. Parker. With complete knowledge of how to "create" additional application of force, through the Principles and Concepts.
Creating borrowed force, "blurring" hands (?), well maybe not hands, but the continuous explosive pressure of hands and body, and a thourough knowledge of the dynamics of motion, physiology, and kinetic potential should stand you in good stead.
Flow first, power later ... but at some point, ya gotta have the power too. Not the same thing as "strength" at all.
-MB
No matter how fast you are, you have to know where to strike, and in what manner to effectively disable an opponent. Reference someone my size cracking an opponent's sternum, as v. someone about 110 lbs. sticking their finger in an opponent's eye up to the knuckle (yes, I know this is graphic, but I am in the middle of doing a 6-week women's self-defense seminar right now, and this example is a tactical example). How about a half-fist or tiger's mouth to the throat with 14 or so lbs. of pressure, correctly applied?
Power is much less of an issue, although we should all strive to maximize the relaxed tesion-relaxation whipping, exploding power that was Mr. Parker. With complete knowledge of how to "create" additional application of force, through the Principles and Concepts.
Creating borrowed force, "blurring" hands (?), well maybe not hands, but the continuous explosive pressure of hands and body, and a thourough knowledge of the dynamics of motion, physiology, and kinetic potential should stand you in good stead.
Flow first, power later ... but at some point, ya gotta have the power too. Not the same thing as "strength" at all.
-MB
Doc
Senior Master
I agree completely with one exception of I guess another difference. I was taught "Power first, flow later" by Parker. Go figure. I never thought about that difference until you mentioned it.
don bohrer
Brown Belt
Klondike,
I can't watch the video of people slapping each other around.
Do I need a russian video codec or something? :shrug:
I can't watch the video of people slapping each other around.
Do I need a russian video codec or something? :shrug:
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RCastillo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
Originally posted by don bohrer
Klondike,
I can't watch the video of people slapping each other around.
Do I need a russian video codec or something? :shrug:
No, you need Tracy Kenpo!-vampfeed-
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dcence
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #40
At the risk of brokenrecordism I really think power and speed are inextricably intertwined. And the thing that makes sense of it all and harmonizes your speed/power with your opponent is timing. Speed/power without timing is like a song where all the notes are played at on the same beat. I won't buy that CD.
Derek
