Pope Worries About 'Soulless' American Life

[Jay Bell]

Foxnews reports:

VATICAN CITY — Pope John Paul II (search) warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a "soulless vision of life."



To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church "is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world," John Paul said.

"Taking up this challenge, however, will require a realistic and comprehensive reading of the 'signs of the times,' in order to develop a persuasive presentation of the Catholic faith and prepare young people especially to dialogue with their contemporaries about the Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world."

John Paul added: "An effective proclamation of the Gospel in contemporary Western society will need to confront directly the widespread spirit of agnosticism and relativism which has cast doubt on reason's ability to know the truth, which alone satisfies the human heart's restless quest for meaning."

All bishops must visit the Vatican every five years. This year is the Americans' turn, and several regional delegations already have met with the pope.

Thoughts?

The part that caught my attention was the "human heart's restless quest for meaning." I attended Church this Easter per the request of two friends...which was ironic as two agnostics (self included) and a Jew were in our row. (hilarity has no bounds) Anyway, during the sermon, it was mentioned how in the Pastor's mind, only God has the ability to answer the daunting questions within one's life that go unanswered. So the above caught my eye as well.

The Pastor went on to explain that "all of us" have unanswered questions of life, duty, purpose, etc...and God is the method of the answers. This somewhat dumbfounded me....I looked around the congregation (HUGE) and wondered, "Does everyone here have life questions?" It bothered me to see all of the nods.

What are people's thoughts on this? I honestly don't sit around wondering my purpose in life...I live it. Juggling that type of question around in one's mind, to me, seems like a waste of time and resources.

I don't want this to turn into a religious debate....I'm just curious of people's opinions of what the Pope has said.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Constantly questioning your motives is not a bad thing. :asian:
Sean

 

[Flatlander]

In a way, the pope is certainly on the right track, as the youth do not seem do cling to the traditional dichotomies of the church as their parents and grandparents had, though its another question entirely as to whether its necessary to practice a particular faith in order to have those values...

The problem is motivation. How can people be motivated to search for meaning? Its a very personal journey. I needed to find my own reasons. I don't think any effort by any religeous organization would have catalyzed that decision for me. I just needed to "get there".

 

[michaeledward]

I liked the way V'ger said it to Mr. Spock better ... but the essential question is the same, isn't it?

"Is this all there is?"

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

How could the Catholics reach out to Americans?

Here is an example of how not too.

When you build a brand new Gym, keep it locked up and not open except for school events and school hours.

Then when many of your youths join Young Life or another organization for youths that have sports and get togethers, the Church authorizes the Gym to be open only one night a week. The same night the other organization is holding their events. This good to keep your children in the dark of other groups, and to make sure you maintain your current population. It does nothing about bringing in those on the fence or searching. For now they have to choose which way to go. When if they could go to both, it would be two night a week they would be off the streets or busy, and possible learning.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[MA-Caver]

In a way, the pope is certainly on the right track, as the youth do not seem do cling to the traditional dichotomies of the church as their parents and grandparents had, though its another question entirely as to whether its necessary to practice a particular faith in order to have those values...
The problem is motivation. How can people be motivated to search for meaning? Its a very personal journey. I needed to find my own reasons. I don't think any effort by any religeous organization would have catalyzed that decision for me. I just needed to "get there".

The main problem (IMO) is that parents are the beginning of a person's beliefs and values. If the parents don't work at instilling the good values and spiritual beliefs in their children then they grow up NOT having them and passing on those ideas on to their own children and so forth.
What happened? A number of things in the past 30-40 years.
Little by little I see the values and morals that I was raised on fading in the background or being made into punchlines.
It starts at home and goes outward from there. Schools next and then higher education and so forth.
Ultimately until we decide to teach our children the values needed this country will continue to degrade and descend and the issues that have been discussed so vividly here and in the MT Study and elsewhere will become worse and worse.
Just my opinion of course... :asian:

 

[psi_radar]

I don't understand the problem, since the pope and the fundamentalist christians must know the rapture's coming anyway,and our state of spiritual awakening is moot anyway.

http://www.raptureready.com/

Seriously, though, the pope's got a point, though it's hard to take coming from the equivalent of a CEO of one of the world's wealthiest organizations. We're too materialistic! But don't forget your 10% to the church!

The fact that we all americans basically require 2 incomes to raise children and be established in the middle class is disturbing. I'll never forget something a professor in college told me back in '88--that he made $5600 a year in 1969 and was able to have a car and support his wife, child, and a mortgage.

We've made extreme sacrifices to keep my wife home with my son for his first five years. We will not be able to get ahead nor save for retirement in any significant way until she goes back to work. I work 50+ hours a week, which is more than my father did at my age making proportionally the same or more money. When's the time for spiritual growth? For that matter, a successful relationship with your spouse and children? At some point in the near future, there will probably be a breaking point.

 

[superdave]

The Pope doesn't have a problem harvesting our soulless American dollars, does he. Maybe he is afraid there will not be enough for the church if we keep on our materialistic ways.

 

[Flatlander]

Yes, there does seem to be some irony there...

 

[Cruentus]

I personally think that it is ouor jobs to find our "purpose" in life. I believe in God, and I believe that I was created for a reason, and I believe that part of why I am hear is to fulfill that "reason."

Anyways, I think that people would be better off listening to the pope rather then critiqueing him (and I am speaking generally, not just regarding this thread, as I think that Jay started a good discussion).

And...for those of you who would like to make the uneducated assertion that the Pope is "materialistic," I'd suggest that you read a little bit about his life, how he came up, and his lifestyle now before you make yourself look completely retarded.

PAUL

 

[Jay Bell]

Agreed....I didn't want this to be a 'badmouth the Pope' nonsense thread.

 

[psi_radar]

And...for those of you who would like to make the uneducated assertion that the Pope is "materialistic," I'd suggest that you read a little bit about his life, how he came up, and his lifestyle now before you make yourself look completely retarded.

PAUL

there's really no doubt the pope has led a peaceful, compassionate life, full of struggle and hardship. However, good men can sometimes say ignorant, and ironic things. I never said he was materialistic, just the head of an organization that is extremely rich, and makes a practice of "wowing" the population with its own grandoise presentation. Ever been to the vatican? It is, in places, literally lined with gold. In others, the artwork adorning its walls is even more priceless. Its dazzling opulence struck me more than any other place I've ever visited. Cathedrals are historically the biggest and most impressive and costly architectural structures in most european cities. The ideology behind making structures like this was to present a psychologically impressive setting in which to inspire the congregation to join, and stay loyal to the church, since they appeared almost otherworldly, closer to the kingdom of god. Who paid for these?

The pope, monks, etc. are paid to explore spirituality to depths that other people, who support them, cannot, because they're busy living their lives, having children and working their asses off scrabbling for a living, rather than spending time exploring their spiritual nature. Some of whom pay their 10%. Personally, I'm happy to have the time to answer this thread. I'll spend some more time loving my family. I do try to set aside 10 or so minutes a day to contemplate the enormity of the universe and my place in it. I think the pope is a little out of touch, but a good and spiritual man.

To summarize, I think most of us are doing our best to find our place in the world. I just find it a little frustrating to be chided to do more than we already are when demands are already so great. But to be fair, I suppose that's included in Christian ideology.

 

[Flatlander]

And...for those of you who would like to make the uneducated assertion that the Pope is "materialistic," I'd suggest that you read a little bit about his life, how he came up, and his lifestyle now before you make yourself look completely retarded.

PAUL

Please accept my apology. I meant no disrespect to those who have dedicated their lives to spreading the Word, or those who follow a good path. My concern is those who would use their power for things not conducive to the teachings of the great prophets, or for their own benefit. Though I have obviously never met him, I'm sure the Pope is not one of those people.

Dan

 

[Marginal]

Foxnews reports:

The Pastor went on to explain that "all of us" have unanswered questions of life, duty, purpose, etc...and God is the method of the answers. This somewhat dumbfounded me....I looked around the congregation (HUGE) and wondered, "Does everyone here have life questions?" It bothered me to see all of the nods.

What are people's thoughts on this? I honestly don't sit around wondering my purpose in life...I live it. Juggling that type of question around in one's mind, to me, seems like a waste of time and resources.

I don't want this to turn into a religious debate....I'm just curious of people's opinions of what the Pope has said.

Dunno about that, but I found it funny that the Pope would be chastizing people for materialism. Don't see the Vatican giving away all those golden cherubs, priceless works of art etc that the Catholic church owns....

 

[Cruentus]

Dunno about that, but I found it funny that the Pope would be chastizing people for materialism. Don't see the Vatican giving away all those golden cherubs, priceless works of art etc that the Catholic church owns....

The Catholic Church could put all their priceless artifacts and art up for sale....but who'd buy it? Should priceless artifacts and art be sold at all? Maybe I should go to the Detroit Art Institute and tell them to sell all their artwork because Detroit is far to depressed to have a museum like that. Hey, how about if I start at the Detroit Art Institute, then go to the Henry Ford Museum, etc. etc. We could sell all the art and give it to the poor. Do you think that this would erradicate the poor if that happened? Don't think so.

The art and artifacts in the Vatican are just that...art and artifacts; not liquid assets. THose things are a part of history that shouldn't be sold for any reason anymore then we should gut all the history and art museums in any major city. How was wealth aquired? Many different ways. For example, often times those large Cathedrals that you see in different areas were built by the poor, and by the monetary gifts from both poor and rich. People forget that in many areas throughout history, poor people wanted a Church they could go to and feel proud of, so they gladly donated what little money they had so they could have that beautiful church. Things aren't as they seem, but of course, people are quick to pass judgement.

I am not saying the Catholic Church, or any institution is perfect. I have heard homilies regarding tithing that cross well over the line of ignorance myself; and I have written letters against these as well. But the Pope's comments are dead on, in my opinion. He isn't talking about "tithing" here, or any other ridiculus thing that someone will "guess" he is talking about without actually reading what he said. He is talking about the dangers of materialism in our society, and our inner search for meaning. If you live in the U.S., you live in the most materialistic society in the world. Turn on any T.V. station if you don't believe me. We become more and more materialistic, while our middle class becomes poorer and poorer. This extremely dangerous not only to out "spirituality" but to our society and economy as well.

But, I don't think any of this is what Jay Bell started this thread to talk about.

I believe we are supposed to be talking about our inner search for meaning?

PAUL

 

[Marginal]

The Catholic Church could put all their priceless artifacts and art up for sale....but who'd buy it?

Rich collectors, the Yakuza... Doesn't really matter to me.

Should priceless artifacts and art be sold at all?

Why not? the church could help the poor, or put money into curing some kind of disease etc. Stuff that's not about the materialism which they denounce abroad.

Maybe I should go to the Detroit Art Institute and tell them to sell all their artwork because Detroit is far to depressed to have a museum like that.

Is Detroit issuing statements to the world that they are too obsessed with aquisitions and materialistic pursuits? Don't see the relevance.

We could sell all the art and give it to the poor. Do you think that this would erradicate the poor if that happened? Don't think so.

Perhaps. But at least the bald hypocrites would be gone. That has to be a societal good no matter how you wanna parse it.

The art and artifacts in the Vatican are just that...art and artifacts; not liquid assets.

They're assets.

How was wealth aquired? Many different ways. For example, often times those large Cathedrals that you see in different areas were built by the poor, and by the monetary gifts from both poor and rich.

Then there are plenty that were paid for in blood.

He is talking about the dangers of materialism in our society, and our inner search for meaning.

Which would actually mean something if he understood the society he's critiquing.

I believe we are supposed to be talking about our inner search for meaning?

PAUL

Which seems to mean, as long as your storing stuff up in Rome, it's ok. But damn the rest of the world if they want a golden cherub too.

 

[Cruentus]

The correlation between museums like the Detroit Art Institute and "The Church" is that State dollars and taxes (money that is supposed to be used to protect citizens) goes to the museums every year, and they don't pay taxes. So does this mean that Detroit, because it is somewhat depressed, shouldn't have things like Museums? Does this mean that poor areas shouldn't have nice Churches? Or that a church shouldn't have historical pieces of art and artifacts when there are people out there who are poor? Your arguement, I'm afraid, is "marginal."

And you should maybe do a little research or provide a little evidence before you provide outlandish claims. Church authority takes a vow to poverty; this means that your priests basically own nothing. The church does plenty to help the poor, and wealthy christians and catholics are known for donating $$ to organizations that help fight disease, etc. Your blanket statements have little wieght behind them. Provide evidence that the Pope doesn't understand society, or that selling artifacts is a great solution to help fight poverty, or which pieces of work were paid for "in blood" by the church, and maybe you'll have a good arguement.

The Church selling it's historical artifacts and donating the money to the poor is not the solution to poverty. If we sold Golden Cherubs as trophies to every Rich A-hole who'll but, and sites like the sistieen(sp?) chapel to Pepsico, poverty would still run rampet. You'd save a few at the expense of comercializing and capitalizing everything that is a part of our history, and on things that we should consider priceless and sacred. But the fact that wealthy elite and corporate control over the Vatican sounds like a great idea to you only should enlighten us more as to the validity of what the Pope said regarding materialism. If you want to fight poor, a better start would be with our own government, not the Vatican.

But, that's cool. We can corporatize everything. That way we can make everyone on the planet poor with the exception of maybe 1% of the population, enslaving the majority to the minority. Who needs that church crap anyways. See you at the salt mines.

PAUL

:-offtopic But hey, weren't we talking about the inner search for meaning? :idunno:

 

[Jay Bell]

But hey, weren't we talking about the inner search for meaning?

Yep...once upon a time I guess some just have some pretty dull axes lying around..

 

[psi_radar]

The Church selling it's historical artifacts and donating the money to the poor is not the solution to poverty. If we sold Golden Cherubs as trophies to every Rich A-hole who'll but, and sites like the sistieen(sp?) chapel to Pepsico, poverty would still run rampet. You'd save a few at the expense of comercializing and capitalizing everything that is a part of our history, and on things that we should consider priceless and sacred. But the fact that wealthy elite and corporate control over the Vatican sounds like a great idea to you only should enlighten us more as to the validity of what the Pope said regarding materialism. If you want to fight poor, a better start would be with our own government, not the Vatican.

But, that's cool. We can corporatize everything. That way we can make everyone on the planet poor with the exception of maybe 1% of the population, enslaving the majority to the minority. Who needs that church crap anyways. See you at the salt mines.

PAUL

:-offtopic But hey, weren't we talking about the inner search for meaning? :idunno:

I don't want to belabor this line of discussion, since the topic is the inner search for meaning, but Paul, remember the catholic church IS a corporation, tithes could be considered taxes, and if the Pope's a pauper he scored the most excellent refrigerator box on the planet to live in. The Catholic Church has done some good things and some questionable things for the world at large. Beyond judging it as a whole, it cannot be denied that its actions have always been driven by shrewd motives that ultimately have allowed it to be one of the most enduring, poowerful, and financially successful organizations in history.

The thrust of my point, which must not have been clear enough, is that it is indeed difficult to contemplate our place in a world in which obligation, stress, and responsibility dictates and consumes our actions. Society here in the US does indeed play a role in this by setting certain materialistic goals. I don't like it anymore than anyone else. So what's the solution? We can all try to find our place in the world and find some degree of enlightenment before we go wherever it is we go, and hurt as few people as we can along the way. Is there any more than that to do?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich A-hole

But, that's cool. We can corporatize everything. That way we can make everyone on the planet poor with the exception of maybe 1% of the population, enslaving the majority to the minority. Who needs that church crap anyways. See you at the salt mines.

PAUL

:-offtopic But hey, weren't we talking about the inner search for meaning? :idunno:

Paul,

There are other Rich's on this board. They may not know you like I do. What you call while drinking a beer is different then what is posted here. :asian: Not all will understand you.

As to your last paragraph, the rich seem to get richer, and the poor get further away. The middle class is shrinking, and a small technical group will still be needed to maintain the system. As to the salt mines. imagine teh Harkonen's in the Dune saga's.
:asian: