Podium promotion pessimism

[skribs]

Someone competes in a tournament, wins gold. While standing atop the podium, their professor gives them their new belt. My gym has seen this. My gym has done this. We had a 6-year-old girl get her solid gray belt on the podium, and a 40-year-old man get his purple belt.

We've also had multiple folks lose a match, and then the winner went on to get promoted. This includes blue belts who lost to a soon-to-be purple, white belts who lost to a soon-to-be blue, and gray belts who lost to a soon-to-be yellow.

The adults have always brushed it off as, "So I'm just a white belt that lost to a blue belt." One of the kids tried to do the same thing, but their parent/coach said they can't think that way, can't make excuses. To be fair, the adults train hard and this kid is one of the laziest students I've seen in my teaching career.

In my opinion, this borders on sandbagging. The reaction of the adults basically says so. Am I missing something here? Or is this as cringe as I think it is?

 

[dunc]

Someone competes in a tournament, wins gold. While standing atop the podium, their professor gives them their new belt. My gym has seen this. My gym has done this. We had a 6-year-old girl get her solid gray belt on the podium, and a 40-year-old man get his purple belt.

We've also had multiple folks lose a match, and then the winner went on to get promoted. This includes blue belts who lost to a soon-to-be purple, white belts who lost to a soon-to-be blue, and gray belts who lost to a soon-to-be yellow.

The adults have always brushed it off as, "So I'm just a white belt that lost to a blue belt." One of the kids tried to do the same thing, but their parent/coach said they can't think that way, can't make excuses. To be fair, the adults train hard and this kid is one of the laziest students I've seen in my teaching career.

In my opinion, this borders on sandbagging. The reaction of the adults basically says so. Am I missing something here? Or is this as cringe as I think it is?

There’s always a bit of sandbagging and TBH there is quite a gap between a new blue belt and a 4 stripe blue belt, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere
On the other hand I tend to think if you’ve just beaten everyone in your category, especially in a major competition, then you kinda deserve the next belt

 

[Hot Lunch]

The adults have always brushed it off as, "So I'm just a white belt that lost to a blue belt." One of the kids tried to do the same thing, but their parent/coach said they can't think that way, can't make excuses.

So they're getting scolded for not being sore losers? This doesn't make sense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Someone competes in a tournament, wins gold. While standing atop the podium, their professor gives them their new belt. My gym has seen this. My gym has done this. We had a 6-year-old girl get her solid gray belt on the podium, and a 40-year-old man get his purple belt.

We've also had multiple folks lose a match, and then the winner went on to get promoted. This includes blue belts who lost to a soon-to-be purple, white belts who lost to a soon-to-be blue, and gray belts who lost to a soon-to-be yellow.

The adults have always brushed it off as, "So I'm just a white belt that lost to a blue belt." One of the kids tried to do the same thing, but their parent/coach said they can't think that way, can't make excuses. To be fair, the adults train hard and this kid is one of the laziest students I've seen in my teaching career.

In my opinion, this borders on sandbagging. The reaction of the adults basically says so. Am I missing something here? Or is this as cringe as I think it is?

There's that belt fetish that you have. You would truly be lost if the martial world had no belts.

Focus more on the skill and less on the color of the belt.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So they're getting scolded for not being sore losers? This doesn't make sense.

Some parents and coaches demand alot from their child. It's not unheard of.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Some parents and coaches demand alot from their child. It's not unheard of.

Right, they demand more on the field, court, or (in this case) mat. But demanding that they display frustration on the podium is odd to me.

 

[Hot Lunch]

There's that belt fetish that you have. You would truly be lost if the martial world had no belts.

Focus more on the skill and less on the color of the belt.

You're replying to skribs, not PhotonGuy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Depends a bit. Would they have gotten the rank without winning the tournament? Or did they get the new belt because they won the tournament, proving that they're better than the competition at that level? If the second (which is what it sounds like), that's perfectly fine to me. It's like in fencing you have specific ranks, and when you win a tournament that had 4 (example number, not verified) "B ranked" fencers, and a minimum of 16 in the tournament, then you automatically become a b rank yourself. You were still C or unranked up to that point, and anyone you fenced against was fencing a c ranker, but now that you proved your worth, you are a B fencer. It's the fairest way to do that, honestly.

 

[punisher73]

Just about any school that competes a lot based on rank sandbags their ranking.

They all want to brag about how their "lowest" students can beat "higher" ranked students of other schools. This has been going on since the 60's. Its also a way to make sure their student wins their division by being under ranked/overqualified.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just about any school that competes a lot based on rank sandbags their ranking.

They all want to brag about how their "lowest" students can beat "higher" ranked students of other schools. This has been going on since the 60's. Its also a way to make sure their student wins their division by being under ranked/overqualified.

I think that may depend on the school. We do NOT compete much, but when we do our students always perform above their nominal rank. Because standards. If students in school A get to 1st Dan in 2-3 years, they're not likely to perform well against students from school B where it takes 6-8 years. Experience matters.

When we do compete, I've asked event staff to let us enter our students in classes above their nominal rank. My goal is a good challenge, not an easy victory.

In open tournaments, I'd prefer to see people matched up based on experience, rather than rank.

 

[skribs]

I still think you should just open your dream school, teach what you want, and award rank based on your criteria.

So they're getting scolded for not being sore losers? This doesn't make sense.

I think I misspoke in my OP. The girl was upset. Her Mom was trying to reassure her that she had lost to a yellow belt. The Dad said, "You can't make excuses."

She's the type of kid who tries to see how little she can do and get away with it. For example, everyone else does 20 pushups as part of the warmup, she does a total of 7 where her elbows barely bend. During drills she spends more time talking than drilling. And so on.

There's that belt fetish that you have. You would truly be lost if the martial world had no belts.

Focus more on the skill and less on the color of the belt.

Every single professional sport has some sort of ranking system that puts you with people that are supposedly around your skill level. High school sports have varsity and JV teams. MMA has rankings, so that you don't have amateur fighters against champions. In No-Gi BJJ competitions, they often do it by years of practice instead of belt.

Just about any school that competes a lot based on rank sandbags their ranking.

They all want to brag about how their "lowest" students can beat "higher" ranked students of other schools. This has been going on since the 60's. Its also a way to make sure their student wins their division by being under ranked/overqualified.

(see below)

I think that may depend on the school. We do NOT compete much, but when we do our students always perform above their nominal rank. Because standards. If students in school A get to 1st Dan in 2-3 years, they're not likely to perform well against students from school B where it takes 6-8 years. Experience matters.

When we do compete, I've asked event staff to let us enter our students in classes above their nominal rank. My goal is a good challenge, not an easy victory.

In open tournaments, I'd prefer to see people matched up based on experience, rather than rank.

I was actually thinking of you when I read @punisher73 's comment, but it seems I missed this particular detail in the past: "When we do compete, I've asked event staff to let us enter our students in classes above their nominal rank. My goal is a good challenge, not an easy victory."

But you're not the only one I've heard that has longer-than-standard times for TKD progression, and I have heard others brag about how their blue belts mop the floor with other blue belts. Because yeah, if your blue belt has been training for 8 years and mine has been training for 18 months, yours SHOULD win.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You're replying to skribs, not PhotonGuy.

Skribs has this deep focus on belt colors and rank. I'm pretty sure I got the right guy.

Right, they demand more on the field, court, or (in this case) mat. But demanding that they display frustration on the podium is odd to me.

Sometimes kids font have visual expressions for what they feel. As a result parents may think kids dont care. But deep inside that child is trying to figure out how to deal with it. This is especially true for kids who hold emotions in. Parents need to remember that it's their kid's experience and not. Let kids soak up life in their own way when the opportunity allows it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was actually thinking of you when I read @punisher73 's comment,

Stalker!!!!!!

but it seems I missed this particular detail in the past: "When we do compete, I've asked event staff to let us enter our students in classes above their nominal rank. My goal is a good challenge, not an easy victory."

I think this fits with my general attitude towards rank and my goals for training. It's not about trophies, it's about learning something. And you rarely learn anything from an easy win.

But you're not the only one I've heard that has longer-than-standard times for TKD progression, and I have heard others brag about how their blue belts mop the floor with other blue belts. Because yeah, if your blue belt has been training for 8 years and mine has been training for 18 months, yours SHOULD win.

And it's really nothing to brag about. Put my 8 year student with their 8 year student. That should, in theory, be a reasonably even match.

 

[punisher73]

I think that may depend on the school. We do NOT compete much, but when we do our students always perform above their nominal rank. Because standards. If students in school A get to 1st Dan in 2-3 years, they're not likely to perform well against students from school B where it takes 6-8 years. Experience matters.

When we do compete, I've asked event staff to let us enter our students in classes above their nominal rank. My goal is a good challenge, not an easy victory.

In open tournaments, I'd prefer to see people matched up based on experience, rather than rank.

I agree 100% with what you said. I was grumpy this morning and made my statement very generic.

In my experience over the years. I tend to see the "sandbagging" from schools that advertise themselves a competition school and use it as a marketing item. Especially, when I repeatedly hear them brag about how their lower ranked students are better than X and beat their higher ranked students.

But, as you pointed out, with the proliferation of McDojo's and easy guaranteed rank in many places, its not hard to out perform students of equal rank on a consistent basis when there isn't the quality control of rank that there used to be.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think I misspoke in my OP. The girl was upset. Her Mom was trying to reassure her that she had lost to a yellow belt. The Dad said, "You can't make excuses."

Sound like a normal mom and dad. Father's dump the emotion and focus on the goal. Mothers deal with the emotions and focus on the goal.

To be honest that sounds like part of my childhood. Eventually, I learned which parent to go to with my problems. I never went to my dad with feelings because he was always mechanical about life. Fall down and get hurt. Brush yourself off and get back in the game. Any feelings associated with the fall don't exist. My Dad made me physically tough. My mom made me emotionally tough.

What you describe is fine as long as it's not overdone at the cost of their daughter's well being. They won't know for sure if it was a good thing for him to say that until she gets older.

Every single professional sport has some sort of ranking system that puts you with people that are supposedly around your skill level. High school spo

Have you ever seen a sports team get blown out or a fighter lose in a matter of seconds. Things like this happen because they aren't the same skill level. Belt Color doesn’t guarantee that someone is more skilled or less skilled. That's why I keep saying don't focus on the belt color. Even within the same school, there could be a big difference.

I could be a beginner in BJJ and be more skilled than other beginners even though I don't know of any BJJ. I don't train in it but I've had to deal with it.

You are consistently thinking something is out of order when a lower belt is more skilled than what the belt suggests.

Focus on the skill not the belt.
As far as professionals go, some of them still get blown out. Tyson ran through alot of them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because yeah, if your blue belt has been training for 8 years and mine has been training for 18 months, yours SHOULD win.

Experience not the belt.

 

[gyoja]

Sound like a normal mom and dad. Father's dump the emotion and focus on the goal. Mothers deal with the emotions and focus on the goal.

To be honest that sounds like part of my childhood. Eventually, I learned which parent to go to with my problems. I never went to my dad with feelings because he was always mechanical about life. Fall down and get hurt. Brush yourself off and get back in the game. Any feelings associated with the fall don't exist. My Dad made me physically tough. My mom made me emotionally tough.

What you describe is fine as long as it's not overdone at the cost of their daughter's well being. They won't know for sure if it was a good thing for him to say that until she gets older.



Have you ever seen a sports team get blown out or a fighter lose in a matter of seconds. Things like this happen because they aren't the same skill level. Belt Color doesn’t guarantee that someone is more skilled or less skilled. That's why I keep saying don't focus on the belt color. Even within the same school, there could be a big difference.

I could be a beginner in BJJ and be more skilled than other beginners even though I don't know of any BJJ. I don't train in it but I've had to deal with it.

You are consistently thinking something is out of order when a lower belt is more skilled than what the belt suggests.

Focus on the skill not the belt.
As far as professionals go, some of them still get blown out. Tyson ran through alot of them.

I’m just curious. Do students not have to demonstrate particular skills in order to achieve promotions in certain systems? If there is one standard for each promotion, then everyone is held to the same standard in that system. Sure, some may be better at sparring while others are better at forms, etc. due to individual talents.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In open tournaments, I'd prefer to see people matched up based on experience, rather than rank.

I think this is better since belt rank experience is not the same across schools. Sometimes it's not the same within the same school.

 

[gyoja]

I think this is better since belt rank experience is not the same across schools. Sometimes it's not the same within the same school.

It’s been a little while, but when I regularly competed the gup divisions were established by groups: beginner, intermediate and advanced. Your particular school determined what division that you competed in. Your belt in your particular school was how your school determined where you were placed.

 

[skribs]

Skribs has this deep focus on belt colors and rank. I'm pretty sure I got the right guy.

It's required for certain privileges that I want in TKD, so yes. I have a focus on it. I'm sure when doctors are going through medical school they're also quite focused on what degree they're getting. Do you criticize medical students because they're soooo focused on getting their degree, they should be learning medicine instead?

Experience not the belt.

The belt is just a physical token representing experience. Except the belt is generally based on more factors than just years of experience, and so serves as a better representation of skill than time-in-grade.

I think this is better since belt rank experience is not the same across schools. Sometimes it's not the same within the same school.

Experience is also not equivalent. Someone with 2 years of experience going to a 1-hour class 2 days per week is going to have a significantly different level of skill than someone with 2 years of experience going to a 2-hour class 6 days per week.

In the above example, you're likely to see the guy with 200 mat hours sitting around 3-4 stripes on a white belt, and the guy with 1200 mat hours halfway through blue.

Since most people track training in terms of how long they've been doing it instead of number of mat hours, using belts tends to make a lot more sense. As long as there is some standard in the training organization or sporting authority, it will tend to work out pretty well.