Pistolcraft

[Tgace]

My intention for this thread is to discuss, point by point, pistolcraft. Starting with the basics and moving along as the discussion goes. So to start with....

Grip.

Many people like to start with stance, but as stances are prone to a lot of change on the street, I like to start with grip, which is really the fundation IMHO.

Many people do not think about how to grip a handgun. For an auto pistol especially, the grip makes a big difference. There are various shooting systems; weaver, center axis relock, Chapman method etc. etc. that all recommend various grips. I figure we'll just start simple.....

With your fingers and thumb making an "L", place your strong hand as high up on the grip as is comfortably possible. The apex of the web of your hand should be centered at the rearmost point of the curve in the gun's backstrap. This makes sure you are not gripping the gun too far, or not far enough, around the grip. The forefinger should rest naturally along the side of the frame above the trigger and the other three fingers should wrap easily around the frontstrap of the grip. The strong-hand thumb may either be in a "high" or "low" position. Caution must be used in both of these positions. Too low a position may actuate the magazine release, dumping your mag unintentionally. Too high a position may induce stoppages by unintentionally dragging your thumb on the slide as it cycles.

Your weak hand, should wrap naturally around your strong hand with all of the fingers below the trigger guard. Your weak hand thumb can lay over the top of your strong hand thumb to form a cross ("+"). Other thumb placements are thumbs bent, weak thumb pressing down on the nail of the strong thumb or thumbs stacked, strong on top of weak.

Both elbows should be slightly bent, but both wrists must be locked. The strong hand should be pushing forward slightly, and the weak hand should be pulling back slightly.

Anybody else have any pointers on grip?

 

[te75uo]

I tend to put my right hand high up on the grip, and wrap my left hand under the clip, almost palm up. My fingers of my left hand will wrap around 2-3 of the fingers of my right hand. I will slightly pull with my left hand towards my body, while pushing outwards with my right hand to increase stability.

On a kinda unrelated note, I was tought by a Vietnam sniper that when using a rifle it is helpfull to grab a twig from a tree, and pull it back some with your supporting hand. The muscles you use to hold the twig back will help you steady the gun. About the same principle as pushing, and pulling with your hands on a pistol.

 

[Tgace]

Well, if your "cup and saucer" gripping an automatic I wouldnt recommend it..not a slam, but mechanically it doesn't accomplish much.

Good site from the Midwestern training group about grip...
http://www.midwesttraininggroup.net/Tips/get_a_grip.htm

How tight to grip the pistol is often a topic for debate. Consider the source when taking this advice. If the shooter is from a PPC, Action Pistol, or Bulls-eye background you will likely receive different answers. All have validity for competition and I’ve used every one at some point or other. "Hold it firmly as a hammer when driving nails." "Maintain 40% grip with the gun hand and 60% with the support hand." "Hold it lightly as though it were a quail, firmly enough so that it does not fly away yet delicately so as not to crush it."
​

Bull Hockey….CRUSH down on the grip. Hold it as tightly as you can without setting up tremors in the hands. If you are trying to shoot full power ammunition from a fighting handgun and want to deliver the shots quickly, it’s the way to go. Under the effects of body alarm reaction and fight or flight reflex, one of the first things to leave you is manual dexterity. Its seems disingenuous at best to suggest some fine motor dexterity, subtle nuance type grip. Limbs (in this case, fingers) are sympathetic. During this inter-limb response, what one is doing, the others want to do as well. Not holding the gun hard while moving the trigger finger can allow the other fingers to flex and pull the gun off line. A hard hold on the pistol eliminates this common malady called "milking" which tend to make the shots go south by southwest for the right handed shooter. Muscle down on the grip with both hands as tightly as you can without shaking. Curl the thumb down to add even more strength.​

​

 

[loki09789]

Binocular/monocular sighting. I personally prefer the binocular approach. Under stress your visual awareness is going to go to crap real fast, closing one eye will only compound the problem IMO.

 

[Tgace]

Binocular/monocular sighting. I personally prefer the binocular approach. Under stress your visual awareness is going to go to crap real fast, closing one eye will only compound the problem IMO.

When the #$%% hits the fan you probably wont be able to close one eye anyway...they will both be open WIDE. Of course that depends. In situations where you know there will be gunplay you gain a modicum of control. When it jumps off on you, its all autopilot...

 

[gozanryu]

Well, I think the bi vs mon - ocular thing is a training issue. I have had difficulty "breaking" that habit, or re-training those whove spent there lives using the monocular style of shooting. I agree that having both eyes open is the way to do it, if your training a cherry. Many shooters have shot for years with an eye closed,. It seems more effective to train them from that point rather than try to re-train them from ground zero. Also, I cannot stress enough my belief in steady, consistent training. That is to say, I would rather spend time, 3-5 times a week expending 50 rounds, than expending 500 rounds on 2 Saturdays a month. There is no substitute (imo) for "time in the saddle" Almost universally I have seen DRASTIC improvement employing this method, rather than occasional, intense time at the range. I am also and advocate of "dry gun" handling and firing. Dry fire drills are invaluable to creating familiarity with the gun. And, as I've stated before, I also think it's important to pick a gun, and use THAT gun. My pistol(s) are worn to the white from breaking leather, and re-holstering, and cleaning, and drilling. I want to create a mind state of "mushin" as it applies to handling the gun. The idea is to create an "autonomic" relationship with the gun. Rather than a "thinking process", it should be an "organic" process.

This is my opinion, it and $1.35 will get you a SMALL house coffee at Starbucks.

 

[Cruentus]

This is a great thread, guys.

When I started really getting into pistolcraft (which was only a short time ago) when I would miss my mark, it was usually due to a grip mistake. I feel that catching grip issues early can really help curb bad habits.

I would like to add one golden nugget, because this was a mistake I made early on. Watch your pinky finger. Don't grip too tight with your pinky finger, and don't use the pinky when you squeeze the trigger, and watch for a "pinky flich" or tensing of the pinky when the gun goes bang (not anticipating the bang will help the third one). I say this because I had too tight of a grip with my pinky and I was using it to pull, which caused me to shoot below target. When I fixed this problem, I was doing a lot better.

You should be able to hold the pistol firmly between the web of the thumb and index/middle fingers w/o the aid of the pinky finger.

Anyways, that is something that helped me...

Paul :ultracool

You should be able to

 

[Cruentus]

Binocular/monocular sighting. I personally prefer the binocular approach. Under stress your visual awareness is going to go to crap real fast, closing one eye will only compound the problem IMO.

This is worth quoting because it is such good advice. Keep both eyes open!! :erg: :boing1:

 

[loki09789]

When the #$%% hits the fan you probably wont be able to close one eye anyway...they will both be open WIDE. Of course that depends. In situations where you know there will be gunplay you gain a modicum of control. When it jumps off on you, its all autopilot...

Exactly why it is what I prefer. I will have enough stress on my in the moment, the LAST thing I should be doing during training is practicing something that my natural physiological stress reaction will resist. I SHOULD be devoting time to things that allow me to work with those natural responses and are more practical.

This is why I like the 'flinch factor' logic in 'combatives training' like BLAUER and such. Base your training on sound understanding of motor skill, and physiological conditions under stress so that you don't create more friction in the moment.

 

[Tgace]

This is a great thread, guys.

When I started really getting into pistolcraft (which was only a short time ago) when I would miss my mark, it was usually due to a grip mistake. I feel that catching grip issues early can really help curb bad habits.

I would like to add one golden nugget, because this was a mistake I made early on. Watch your pinky finger. Don't grip too tight with your pinky finger, and don't use the pinky when you squeeze the trigger, and watch for a "pinky flich" or tensing of the pinky when the gun goes bang (not anticipating the bang will help the third one). I say this because I had too tight of a grip with my pinky and I was using it to pull, which caused me to shoot below target. When I fixed this problem, I was doing a lot better.

You should be able to hold the pistol firmly between the web of the thumb and index/middle fingers w/o the aid of the pinky finger.

Anyways, that is something that helped me...

Paul :ultracool

You should be able to

Actually, what you had going on is called "milking" and is a problem with the "hold the gun gently aka:bird holding grip" the latest technique in pistolcraft is the "crush grip" (quoted above). You should be mashing down with both hands, especially on the lighter weight polymer autos. Under combat pressure you are not going to get a "bird holding" grip or a 60%-40% grip. You are going to sympathetically mash down with both hands. With crisp recoiling loads and lighter guns, its a better technique to hold the gun on target with rapid firing. Most of this stuff happens at 25 yds. max and most of the time within 7 feet. Target grip is un-necessary.

 

[Tgace]

Well, I think the bi vs mon - ocular thing is a training issue. I have had difficulty "breaking" that habit, or re-training those whove spent there lives using the monocular style of shooting. I agree that having both eyes open is the way to do it, if your training a cherry. Many shooters have shot for years with an eye closed,. It seems more effective to train them from that point rather than try to re-train them from ground zero. Also, I cannot stress enough my belief in steady, consistent training. That is to say, I would rather spend time, 3-5 times a week expending 50 rounds, than expending 500 rounds on 2 Saturdays a month. There is no substitute (imo) for "time in the saddle" Almost universally I have seen DRASTIC improvement employing this method, rather than occasional, intense time at the range. I am also and advocate of "dry gun" handling and firing. Dry fire drills are invaluable to creating familiarity with the gun. And, as I've stated before, I also think it's important to pick a gun, and use THAT gun. My pistol(s) are worn to the white from breaking leather, and re-holstering, and cleaning, and drilling. I want to create a mind state of "mushin" as it applies to handling the gun. The idea is to create an "autonomic" relationship with the gun. Rather than a "thinking process", it should be an "organic" process.

This is my opinion, it and $1.35 will get you a SMALL house coffee at Starbucks.

Do some simunitions training and you will see that the habit isnt really that hard to break. Up close and when the BG has the drop on you you will point shoot with both eyes open. I was a dyed in the wool weaver/one eye shooter. Ive since seen how Im going to really shoot under stress and am now a modern isosceles/ 2 eye shooter.

When it comes to aiming style. Point, flash sight and aimed fire. Id say that you should train in all. Up close under pressure shooting will 99% be point. A little distance and/or some advance warning that shooting will happen and you will flash sight (just get the sights on target, typically the front sight and compress the trigger). From long range and/from behind cover you may be able to get into your sights and really draw a bead on the BG. But as most of the stuff is close 90% should be on point and flash sight picture shooting. IMHO.

 

[dearnis.com]

Grip- high and firm. Make the gun part of you. (get grips that fit YOUR hand). Cross thumbs- my preference but I have seen some guys do very well with straight thumbs.

Stance- agree; it needs to be fluid.

Binocular/monocular sighting. You should be able to use both when appropriate. Like it or not "less than aimed" fire is the norm at close range. As noted above, see what actually happend during simunition training (answer-everyone gets shot in the hand because evryone fixates on the weapon....)

Do some simunitions training and you will see that the habit isnt really that hard to break. Up close and when the BG has the drop on you you will point shoot with both eyes open. I was a dyed in the wool weaver/one eye shooter. Ive since seen how Im going to really shoot under stress and am now a modern isosceles/ 2 eye shooter.

Yup.

 

[KenpoTex]

Great discussion guys. The only thing I would add is with regard to the proper grip. Actually it reffers to the position of the index finger when actually shooting. I was taught to position the finger so that the pad of the finger (rather than the first joint or part of the finger below the joint) is the part actually in contact with the trigger. This allows the index finger to operate independantly so to speak giving you a smoother trigger squeeze. That way you reduce the chance of "pulling" your shots. It also faciltates proper formation for the rest of the grip.

 

[GAB]

Hi all,
I like this one, Bio and squeeze, hold that position for that last nano sec and boom... On target everytime.

Distance means the perp is at a disadvantage as a rule so the nano sec is really important, not to buck, jerk or pull...Just squeeze...

If using double action then get that round off as fast and good as you can then follow up with a second quickly.

Main reason the Glock is so popular same o same o all the time. Colt 1911A1 also if carried in the ready, got to release that safety and have a better grip as a rule.
Lots of safeties for you to go through but safe is good, gives you that instant to shoot or not. I have seen quite a few good men succumb to the good shoot, young or innocent in line of fire thing.

To kill an innocent is a terrible thing. To have to kill is tough enough but to live with the other is rough.
I have seen (like I typed) many a good man succumb to the nightmares and end their career and lives also.

MY 2 cents.

Regards, Gary

 

[Tgace]

Trigger Squeeze:

There is a wide variety of trigger "feels" available today, from traditional double/single action to double-action only, and Glock's "safe-action". Each of these requires a slightly different trigger technique. The most difficult to master is the traditional double/single action. The transition from the first shot's double-action to the remaining shots' single-action requires the shooter to learn and master two different trigger techniques and to transition between them after the first shot. The easiest trigger to learn and master is the Glock's. It is the lightest version of the double-action-only trigger, and the lack of levers and buttons makes transitioning revolver shooters to autos easiest on the Glock.

The key to trigger control is a steady press of the trigger. The trigger finger should slip into the trigger guard from its "safety" position on the frame only when you are ready to shoot. Otherwise, it stays out of the trigger guard along the side of the frame. One must guard against "slapping" the trigger, however. Once you notice contact with the trigger, go to the smooth rolling motion described below. Once inside the trigger guard, the area on the pad of the forefinger between the center of the pad and the first knuckle should touch the trigger. Having the trigger touched by the center of the pad or down in the crevice of the first joint of the finger will cause the gun to pull to the left or right and slightly down instead of staying exactly where the sights were aligned. (Other than flinching, this is the most common cause of misses.) The trigger press should be a smooth rearward steady rolling motion. Watch the front sight and align it with the target while the trigger is being pressed. One must guard against squeezing with the entire hand. The action of your finger against the trigger should be totally independent of the movement of the rest of your hand. When the trigger reaches the point where the trigger releases the firing mechanism, the shooter will feel a sudden release of tension on the trigger. This is the trigger's "break". This moment should come as a surprise, especially on single-action mode. You should be able to "call" your shot by remembering where the front sight was on the target, the moment the trigger breaks.

Practice your trigger control by dry-firing your pistol at home. Use a target on the wall. Make sure the pistol is unloaded (check it three times after you've put all ammunition in another room)!! Then, practice all of these points while aiming at your "target". Never dry-fire more than 50 to 100 times in each session. Take a break and relax, then go back to dry-firing. You cannot dry-fire too much. Just make sure to concentrate on these fundamentals, and as soon as you feel fatigued or recognize that you can't do each one of these fundamentals every time you dry-fire, stop and take a break.

There are a lot of details of marksmanship fundamentals here, but the entire list can be boiled down to: "Front Sight, Press." Focusing on the front sight and good trigger control are the essentials that are absolutely required to shoot well. The others are needed to make you into a great shot, but to even begin to be a good/passable shot, you MUST master, front sight, and trigger press.

 

[Tgace]

Check out this guy....specialized shooting, but impressive nonetheless.

http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/BlakeMiquez2b.avi

 

[Cruentus]

Awesome post on trigger squeeze, Tom.

A neat little trick that one can employ when dryfiring depending on the gun's sights is the "coin trick."

Take a penny and balance it on your front sight (if you are able too; luckily I can with the sites on my sig). Then dry fire, practicing your trigger pull. You should be able to squeeze all the way through until the gun clicks without the penny falling off the site. If you are flinching, jerking, "milking" as I was told earlier, or if your holding too firmly or not firmly enough causing your hand to shake, pulling to the right or left when you squeeze, or basically not keeping a steady hand through the entire trigger pull, then the penny falling to the floor will tell you.

Now obviously this will not help you with everything, you can't do it from a draw, etc.; so it has limitations. But it helped me steady my hand through my shot. I noticed a major difference right away when I did some reps with this. It is good even to do it before actually shooting at the range to make sure the hands are steady, especially if you have developed a flinch.

Anyways, just a little fun trick...

Paul :mp5: :ultracool

 

[Tgace]

Theres also some nice (read expensive) systems where a laser is inserted into the handgin and shot at a target system hooked up to your PC. Shows the aiming/squeezing/firing track ...neat.

 

[Cruentus]

Theres also some nice (read expensive) systems where a laser is inserted into the handgin and shot at a target system hooked up to your PC. Shows the aiming/squeezing/firing track ...neat.

My wife would practice with it, then shoot me for spending our cash on one of those! :uhyeah:

 

[Tgace]

Why do you think I dont have one...