Perception is Reality

[Gyakuto]

From Annie’s Pump Club and made clearer/more accurate by me!

When is an “unhealthy” food actually healthy? When you believe it is.

Research suggests that your perception of the “healthiness” of food influences how your body reacts to it.

The study was a fascinating example of “where the mind goes, the body follows.” The scientists had participants drink either a high-fat and high-sugar milkshake, a low-fat, low-sugar milkshake, or water. Then, they tested everyone’s flow-mediated dilation (FMD), which is a marker of endothelial function related to cardiovascular health. In other words, they were testing to see how the different drinks impacted the functioning of the participant’s arterioles.

(Flow-mediated dilation is the way the arterioles relax, become wider and so their resistance to blood flowing along them decreases as the blood flow increases! It’d be a bit like you car’s fuel lines getting wider (which they don’t, of course) if you were to press the accelerator pedal. In humans, it’s mediated by nitric oxide release from the healthy lining of the arterioles- Gyakuto)

Those who drank the high-fat, high-sugar drink experienced worsened FMD compared to the low-fat, low-sugar milkshake or water. No big deal, right? Not exactly.

The participants didn’t realize it, but both milkshakes were identical (high in fat and sugar). However, those who thought they were drinking a healthier version didn’t experience the negative effect on FMD function

This adds to the growing research about the “nocebo effect,” which focuses on how negative expectations can influence physical health. This can work against you when you’re taught to believe that foods are bad or dangerous — when, in reality, they are not.

The study found that when participants thought the milkshake was healthier — even though they were still drinking a high-fat, high-sugar milkshake — their arterial function was similar to drinking water.

This isn’t to say you should be drinking milkshakes every day. If you consume highly caloric and high-sugar foods repeatedly, it will negatively impact your health. But, the poison is in the dose. By understanding that food is not inherently bad — and building habits that help you eat well most of the time — you can prevent your mind from harming your body

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Is this an example of the nocebo effect or placebo effect?

Whichever way you choose to view it, perception affects reality

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is this an example of the nocebo effect or placebo effect?

Whichever way you choose to view it, perception affects reality

That would depend how the body reacts if they're not told either way. That would be a useful control in a repeat of this study. If a group not given any information other than something like, "We are evaluating the effects of this specialized shake mix" - or something else that doesn't give them an inference whether it's healthy or not - and asking about their perception of the drink. You'd have to evaluate the group overall (what was the general reaction of their bodies) and whether their self-deteremined perception of the drink had any effect.

If people not being told what it was had a generally bad effect, then the study quoted would be showing a nocebo (that bad effect didn't happen, when they perceived it was healthy). If those not being told generally had no bad effect, then then quoted study would show a placebo effect (the bad effect happened because they were told it was something they perceived as unhealthy).

Of course, with that other question (how they perceived the drink), it's possible we'd see an identical set of responses based on their perception, which would mean we still wouldn't know.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

nocebo

1. a bad effect on someone's health caused, for example, by them expecting a…

dictionary.cambridge.org

a bad effect on someone's health caused, for example, by them expecting a treatment not to work or to have side effects (= unpleasant effects in addition to the main intended effect)

placebo

1. a substance given to someone who is told that it is a particular medicine…

dictionary.cambridge.org

a substance given to someone who is told that it is a particular medicine, either to make that person feel as if they are getting better or to compare the effect of the particular medicine when given to others

 

[Gerry Seymour]

nocebo

1. a bad effect on someone's health caused, for example, by them expecting a…

dictionary.cambridge.org

a bad effect on someone's health caused, for example, by them expecting a treatment not to work or to have side effects (= unpleasant effects in addition to the main intended effect)

placebo

1. a substance given to someone who is told that it is a particular medicine…

dictionary.cambridge.org

a substance given to someone who is told that it is a particular medicine, either to make that person feel as if they are getting better or to compare the effect of the particular medicine when given to others

Interesting, I've heard these used differently, where "nocebo effect" meant an effect didn't happen solely because they expected it not to, and "placebo effect" meant an effect (usually positive, but could also be a negaive effect) happened solely because they expected it.

 

[Fungus]

This adds to the growing research about the “nocebo effect,” which focuses on how negative expectations can influence physical health. This can work against you when you’re taught to believe that foods are bad or dangerous — when, in reality, they are not.

Interesting topic indeed!

Illustrates how physically real the mind-body connection is, and and how the autonomous nervous system (stress) is modulate many physiological processes in the body, from the cardiovascular system to the the immune system and hormone systems and while it's complex and still under research the effects are very real.

"The nocebo effect is mediated through negative emotions such as stress, fear, and anxiety ( Aslaksen & Lyby, 2015; Benedetti et al., 2006; Bingel et al., 2011) At the physiological level, it is associated with activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, which controls reactions to stress, and with higher concentrations of the “stress hormone”, cortisol ( Benedetti et al., 2006; Johansen et al., 2003). Both the nocebo effect and HPA hyperactivity are reduced by anxiolytic drugs ( Benedetti et al., 2006). Anticipatory anxiety facilitates pain transmission, at least partly through cholecystokinin receptors ( Benedetti et al., 1995; Lovick, 2008) and causes nocebo hyperalgesia ( Bingel et al., 2011; Keltner et al., 2006). The nocebo effect is also associated with reduced activation of dopaminergic and opioidergic systems ( Scott et al., 2008; Svedman et al., 2005)."

-- The nocebo effect as a source of bias in the assessment of treatment effects

It seems cardivascular effects here are likely related to the challenge vs threat mechanisms, there threat states produce more cortisol than a challenge state, even if both imply symphatetic elevation. IF you get a pill and are told its likely good, it's likely a challenge (you have alot to win and nothing to loose), but if you are told it can have side effects its likely a threat, as you will worry. And the ANS balance will relect this and modulate the whole body.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From Annie’s Pump Club and made clearer/more accurate by me!

When is an “unhealthy” food actually healthy? When you believe it is.

Research suggests that your perception of the “healthiness” of food influences how your body reacts to it.

The study was a fascinating example of “where the mind goes, the body follows.” The scientists had participants drink either a high-fat and high-sugar milkshake, a low-fat, low-sugar milkshake, or water. Then, they tested everyone’s flow-mediated dilation (FMD), which is a marker of endothelial function related to cardiovascular health. In other words, they were testing to see how the different drinks impacted the functioning of the participant’s arterioles.

(Flow-mediated dilation is the way the arterioles relax, become wider and so their resistance to blood flowing along them decreases as the blood flow increases! It’d be a bit like you car’s fuel lines getting wider (which they don’t, of course) if you were to press the accelerator pedal. In humans, it’s mediated by nitric oxide release from the healthy lining of the arterioles- Gyakuto)

Those who drank the high-fat, high-sugar drink experienced worsened FMD compared to the low-fat, low-sugar milkshake or water. No big deal, right? Not exactly.

The participants didn’t realize it, but both milkshakes were identical (high in fat and sugar). However, those who thought they were drinking a healthier version didn’t experience the negative effect on FMD function

This adds to the growing research about the “nocebo effect,” which focuses on how negative expectations can influence physical health. This can work against you when you’re taught to believe that foods are bad or dangerous — when, in reality, they are not.

The study found that when participants thought the milkshake was healthier — even though they were still drinking a high-fat, high-sugar milkshake — their arterial function was similar to drinking water.

This isn’t to say you should be drinking milkshakes every day. If you consume highly caloric and high-sugar foods repeatedly, it will negatively impact your health. But, the poison is in the dose. By understanding that food is not inherently bad — and building habits that help you eat well most of the time — you can prevent your mind from harming your body

Ha ha ha.. these stupid studies. I got a state full of fat people who love their southern sweet tea and their bodies and health issues say otherwise. I don't think the study was accurate. If they are talking about the whole milk vs low-fat milk in the milkshakes then the study is busted.

Being that I'm from a fat state. Fat people aren't fat because they are sitting on their sofa drinking milk all day. The latest studies actually show the opposite. That the whole milk is actually better for the body, unless your body has a difficult time digesting lactose. High-fat and high sugar can be whole milk and low-fat milk is on the opposite end of the scale.

My wife used to think low milk was better. She would drink it but not lose weight. Then I told her that Whole Milk is better because of the fat in the body helps manage weight. I forgot the long end of it, but she started drinking Whole Milk and she started losing weight. She thought positive of both but one worked better for her. For me I didn't start gaining weight until I stopped drinking milk and started eating a bunch of junk food, food in general and not exercising.

Some of these research studies overlook a lot of things. Like people don't get fat because they are just on the sofa downing Milkshakes everyday. For people like me, That would make me lose weight and purchase more toilet paper. lol

 

[Fungus]

I didn't read the actual paper but I think the point isn't to suggest that suboptimal food is healthy if you just belive in it.

The point is that expectations, fear, emotions and anxiety has real affects on your body, even to the point of beeing very significant. I think this is clear. Give or take details in that study. Anxiety alone can kill people.

 

[Gyakuto]

Interesting topic indeed!

Illustrates how physically real the mind-body connection is,

Interestingly, I’ve just started (critically) reading a book by John Sarno about the mind/body connection/psychosomatic maladies (the terms are used interchangeably). From his experience as a professor of rehabilitation medicine, many ‘pain conditions’ (lower back, neck and limb pain) lack any physical cause: there’s no pathology that is causing that pain. After much investigation he concluded that the pain was caused by psychological issues/trauma and referred the sufferers to psychotherapy with very good effect. Anecdotally, people have reported their pain conditions have improved simply by hearing/reading about psychosomatic pain!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy (Hamlet, 1.5. 165–66)

 

[Bujingodai]

I suffer from a lot of GI issues. Bowel etc. Took me out of the arts for a number of years and work as well. Boiled down to stress and where I "keep it" So I've told anyway. Literally tension made some muscles useless, internally. I am able to manage it now enough to work.

No doubt diet needed to change as well. Never can tell what is the worst or needs to change. Fat was bad now it's not, then carbs, of course sugar is in everything, salt. Never seems to end what you could do to your body.

type 2 diabetic and tired of the pharmacy. Overweight but not obscenely. Go to the gym 4 nights a week.
My wife is as well. But she's on that friggin Ozempic. I have some issues with that.

 

[Gyakuto]

But she's on that friggin Ozempic. I have some issues with that.

May I ask about your issues with Ozempic (semaglutide)?

 

[Bujingodai]

I'm concerned about the development of ileus problems. My spelling is off I am not in the medical field. But from what I have read there are a number of digestive issues. Our hospital has warnings of surgery being postponed due to the usage of it because of mid surgery reflux etc

Added, the cost of it is crazy. The supply is also challenging. Here anyway

 

[Gyakuto]

I'm concerned about the development of ileus problems.

Do you mean slow motility…food going around more slowly?

My spelling is off I am not in the medical field. But from what I have read there are a number of digestive issues.

have you read the side effects sheet? It appears quite alarming but the odds of them occurring are small and will occur early on when she’s taking it.

Our hospital has warnings of surgery being postponed due to the usage of it because of mid surgery reflux etc

I guess you’d have to stop injecting it a couple of months before surgery, but they know best.

Added, the cost of it is crazy. The supply is also challenging. Here anyway

Yes, it’s very hard to get here too because people are buying up stocks for weight loss rather than improving diabetic functioning. Very often they’ll switch patients between semaglutide and the similar duoglutide depending upon availability. Butbat least it’s free here.

If the semaglutide makes your wife feel better because she can handle glucose better, it reduces the terrible effects of diabetes complications and helps her reduce weight (improving her diabetes further), then it has to be a good things over the theoretical risk of certain very specific side effects!

 

[Bujingodai]

Do you mean slow motility…food going around more slowly?

have you read the side effects sheet? It appears quite alarming but the odds of them occurring are small and will occur early on when she’s taking it.

I guess you’d have to stop injecting it a couple of months before surgery, but they know best.

Yes, it’s very hard to get here too because people are buying up stocks for weight loss rather than improving diabetic functioning. Very often they’ll switch patients between semaglutide and the similar duoglutide depending upon availability. Butbat least it’s free here.

If the semaglutide makes your wife feel better because she can handle glucose better, it reduces the terrible effects of diabetes complications and helps her reduce weight (improving her diabetes further), then it has to be a good things over the theoretical risk of certain very specific side effects!

That is what I mean yes. And it does work well for her. I just have worries about it. I have a benefits plan so it's only a few hundred bucks here and there.
We've had to shift the amount she can get due to the bulk of it being used for weight loss..


Mind you, I am on the different complaint that I'd like less pills. Doctor after doc gliclicide, metformin and jardiance I would think one might contravene the other. Or is redundant.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Mind you, I am on the different complaint that I'd like less pills. Doctor after doc gliclicide, metformin and jardiance I would think one might contravene the other. Or is redundant.

The only real interaction between those three is hypoglycemia. Which is a risk with monotherapy as well. They work in three completely different ways (gliclazide increases insulin production, metformin increases cellular absorption of glucose and decreases glucose release from the liver, and jardiance blocks glucose reabsorption by the kidneys and increases glucose excretion). They do not counteract each other, nor is there any redundancy.

Obviously, if sugars can be controlled with monotherapy, that's great, but polydrug therapy is super common. Single drug therapy may not be an option either because you're at the maximum dose, or because side effects (for example, nausea or diarrhea from metformin) limit treatment to low doses.

As regards your specific concern about ileus, it's worth noting that there are some 9 million active prescriptions for Ozempic in the US. To date, there have been about 20 people who have had a bowel obstruction or ileus. That's pretty long odds, especially when we consider the odds of bad outcomes from untreated or undertreated diabetes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's pretty long odds, especially when we consider the odds of bad outcomes from untreated or undertreated diabetes.

Many people miss this reality of this.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Many people miss this reality of this.

True. In part this is because of the way labels are written. I get that there's limited space, but for liability reasons crazy low risks are listed. And there is NO indication of just how rare (or common) a particular reaction is.

It's also not always possible to know if a reaction was actually caused by the medication. Bowel obstructions and ileus happen. Most commonly secondary to cancer, adhesions, infections, electrolyte imbalances, things of that sort. When you're talking about 20 out of 9,000,000 people, the best you can say is that it was probably the ozempic. But 1 in 450,000 are pretty good odds, considering the odds of being struck by lightning are 1 in 15,300.

 

[Bujingodai]

The only real interaction between those three is hypoglycemia. Which is a risk with monotherapy as well. They work in three completely different ways (gliclazide increases insulin production, metformin increases cellular absorption of glucose and decreases glucose release from the liver, and jardiance blocks glucose reabsorption by the kidneys and increases glucose excretion). They do not counteract each other, nor is there any redundancy.

Obviously, if sugars can be controlled with monotherapy, that's great, but polydrug therapy is super common. Single drug therapy may not be an option either because you're at the maximum dose, or because side effects (for example, nausea or diarrhea from metformin) limit treatment to low doses.

As regards your specific concern about ileus, it's worth noting that there are some 9 million active prescriptions for Ozempic in the US. To date, there have been about 20 people who have had a bowel obstruction or ileus. That's pretty long odds, especially when we consider the odds of bad outcomes from untreated or undertreated diabetes.

Wow, that is a batch of great info. I really appreciate that. Answers questions I have had for a long time. I went to talk to my doctor about it, and he basically wanted to refer me to a specialist and a few more booked appointments.

Superb. Honestly really made my night.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Wow, that is a batch of great info. I really appreciate that. Answers questions I have had for a long time. I went to talk to my doctor about it, and he basically wanted to refer me to a specialist and a few more booked appointments.

Superb. Honestly really made my night.

You're welcome. Unfortunately, corporate medicine forces providers to rush and as a result one of the things that suffers is patient education. I can't count how many people I've seen in the ER for no other reason than inadequate patient education. "Your BP is still high because you've only been taking valsartan for 3 days. It takes 2-4 weeks to reach full effect."

 

[Bujingodai]

What about socialist medicine like we have in Canada.

I know we have it free. But, I know when I was sick I waited 18 mo's for an abdominal MRI


neither here nor there. I appreciate the help and that calms my worries down. Onward and forward