other arts

[Nightingale]

Kimpatsu -

you said in another thread that Shorinji Kempoists (Kenshi?) are forbidden from studying other arts? Why?

-Nightingale

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Kimpatsu -

you said in another thread that Shorinji Kempoists (Kenshi?) are forbidden from studying other arts? Why?

-Nightingale

Yes you mentioned it was against the rules.

Why is it against the rules?

What are the rest of the rules? (* Maybe a new thread? *)

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Kimpatsu -

you said in another thread that Shorinji Kempoists (Kenshi?) are forbidden from studying other arts? Why?

-Nightingale

You can't serve two masters. You can only be apprenticed to one person.
How could it be any other way?

 

[Nightingale]

well... I have a guitar teacher and a voice teacher. The three of us seem to get along just fine, and I have ample time to practice both... you can only sing so much, and you can only play so much guitar or your fingers start to bleed. its a happy balance between the two. Why can't martial arts work the same way?

I know many people who choose to expand their martial arts knowledge through cross training, for example, black belts in one art who are intrigued by a few things in another art, so they find a school, learn, and still keep up their skills in their existing art.

And, for the record, I don't consider my instructor or my art as my "master".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me hazard a guess here...

Need a little back history too...

In Modern Arnis, our hand forms were derived from Karate forms. (a pinion I think...not certain which one) Now, like many arts we have multiple forms, etc. and do the 5 years, 4 forms thing.

Many of those studying karate though will spend a long period of time working 1 form, that to us is a simple one, yet to them provides infinite insite.

To study multiple arts doesn't allow the student to truely 'get into the form' and get the maximum enlightenment.

To put it in kenpo terms, imagine spending a year on short 1.


Kimpatsu - Am I close on this?
:asian:

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
well... I have a guitar teacher and a voice teacher. The three of us seem to get along just fine, and I have ample time to practice both... you can only sing so much, and you can only play so much guitar or your fingers start to bleed. its a happy balance between the two. Why can't martial arts work the same way?

I know many people who choose to expand their martial arts knowledge through cross training, for example, black belts in one art who are intrigued by a few things in another art, so they find a school, learn, and still keep up their skills in their existing art.

And, for the record, I don't consider my instructor or my art as my "master".

Either you miss the point entirely, or your being wilfully stupid. Martial arts are not singing and dancing groups. They are a solid, lifelong committment to a lifestyle. Learning the guitar is not.
If you attend another style, it is a slap in the face for your master. Who is your real master? Whom do you serve? But then, as you say, you don't consider the instructor to be your master.
But as you admit elsewhere, you don't understand the first thing about budo.
So why call it "kenpo"?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Let me hazard a guess here...

Need a little back history too...

In Modern Arnis, our hand forms were derived from Karate forms. (a pinion I think...not certain which one) Now, like many arts we have multiple forms, etc. and do the 5 years, 4 forms thing.

Many of those studying karate though will spend a long period of time working 1 form, that to us is a simple one, yet to them provides infinite insite.

To study multiple arts doesn't allow the student to truely 'get into the form' and get the maximum enlightenment.

To put it in kenpo terms, imagine spending a year on short 1.


Kimpatsu - Am I close on this?
:asian:

You're half right, Kaith, in that constant practice of a single art is better for you from a technical POV than butterflying around. There is another point, however: Your branch master gives up their time to make you a better person. You are apprenticed to them. Cross-training is like saying you support Arsenal when they're top of the league, and then switching allegiance to Manchester United as soon as Arsenal loses to Man U. It shows no real committment. It is dishonest. And, it is disrespectful to your branch master.
This is why we all it "budo", and not "bujutsu" or "kakutogi".

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Either you miss the point entirely, or your being wilfully stupid. Martial arts are not singing and dancing groups. They are a solid, lifelong committment to a lifestyle. Learning the guitar is not.
If you attend another style, it is a slap in the face for your master. Who is your real master? Whom do you serve? But then, as you say, you don't consider the instructor to be your master.
But as you admit elsewhere, you don't understand the first thing about budo.
So why call it "kenpo"?

martial arts is a lifelong commitment for a martial artist. music is a lifelong commitment for a musician.

Investigating another art might be a slap in the face for YOUR master. My instructor encourages students to explore and attend seminars if we so choose, and has, many times, invited students from other disciplines into our school so we can train with them and learn some of what they know, if only how to defend against it.

and he'd laugh his *** of if I ever called him master.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
martial arts is a lifelong commitment for a martial artist. music is a lifelong commitment for a musician.

Investigating another art might be a slap in the face for YOUR master. My instructor encourages students to explore and attend seminars if we so choose, and has, many times, invited students from other disciplines into our school so we can train with them and learn some of what they know, if only how to defend against it.

and he'd laugh his *** of if I ever called him master.

But do you apprentice yourself to a musical maestro?
If your branch master tells other sutdents to dojo break, I consider that highly irresponsible. It's up to you; just don'ttry breaking up one of our classes.

 

[Nightingale]

yes, my singing teacher could definitely be called a maestra (which makes her a master of music, not a master of me). She holds a doctorate in music, is the director of music at a university, sings in the Los Angeles Master Chorale, and is the personal protege of the Chorale's director. Her students have recently performed at Carnegie Hall, and have sung with both Michael Crawford and Barbra Striesand. My guitar teacher, who has a doctorate in music as well, was personally recommended by her when I told her I wanted to take up that instrument. She simply gave me his name and phone number, and commented that she believed it would improve my knowledge of theory, because it was a different aspect of the same discipline.

and I don't have a "branch master" I have a kenpo instructor.

 

[Ender]

Master??.....why would anyone call someone their Master?...seems like such a silly antiquated notion.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
yes, my singing teacher could definitely be called a maestra. She holds a doctorate in music, is the director of music at a university, sings in the Los Angeles Master Chorale, and is the personal protege of the Chorale's director. Her students have recently performed at Carnegie Hall, and have sung with both Michael Crawford and Barbra Striesand. My guitar teacher, who has a doctorate in music as well, was personally recommended by her when I told her I wanted to take up that instrument. She simply gave me his name and phone number, and commented that she believed it would improve my knowledge of theory, because it was a different aspect of the same discipline.

and I don't have a "branch master" I have a kenpo instructor.

As I said, the music analogy is irrelevant because it's not budo. Learning a different musical instrument can still be construed as music, but you can't lerarn both Shorinji Kempo and, say, Aikido at the same time.
Is your kenpo branch the only one in the world? If not, whoever heads that branch would be called your branch master, surely?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ender
Master??.....why would anyone call someone their Master?...seems like such a silly antiquated notion.

And therein lies the problem. We live in a Wondermash society, in which everybody can have whatever they want immediately.
This system of apprenticeship is the traditional and proper way to learn budo. It shows committment to one's master. The very fact that you don't understand that speaks volumes.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Again, We are dealing with differences in philosophy, and experience.

Kimpatsu is a traditional student of the Japanese arts. Both KenpoTess and nightingale8472 are students of an American art. The Japanese arts have a reputation of being stricter, and more conservative, whereas the American arts are more relaxed and laid back. Its a culture class. (As an example, in some Asian arts being hit with a stick by the instructor to aid your focus is common. In the US, at the least a lawsuit would arise. Both are right for where they are.)

I recomend everyone take a deep breath and relax.

(Yes, I'm being redundant here, but I am too tired to rewrite the same thing 3 different ways. sorry)

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
And therein lies the problem. We live in a Wondermash society, in which everybody can have whatever they want immediately.
This system of apprenticeship is the traditional and proper way to learn budo. It shows committment to one's master. The very fact that you don't understand that speaks volumes.

*l....rrright....the "proper" way.....you ever listen to yourself?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
(As an example, in some Asian arts being hit with a stick by the instructor to aid your focus is common. In the US, at the least a lawsuit would arise.

Not in Shorinji Kempo, it wouldn't.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well I for one have learned more this evening.

I have a better picture of where Tony is coming from.

The way he is describing certain issues and terms brings me enlightenment. He has a Master, and studies the old way of Budo. This is the way it was and this is the way it will be. This might be fine for strict Japanese culture as Bob has stated, it is different from American Culture.

So, Tony what would happen if your Master Died (* Let us hope this does not happen *) and you did not have a clear successor? Would you then be without a master (* Ronin *) and then must find a new master and pledge you servitude to them? Or could you then assume the title of MAster yourself and accepth apprentices?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Well I for one have learned more this evening.

I have a better picture of where Tony is coming from.

The way he is describing certain issues and terms brings me enlightenment. He has a Master, and studies the old way of Budo. This is the way it was and this is the way it will be. This might be fine for strict Japanese culture as Bob has stated, it is different from American Culture.

So, Tony what would happen if your Master Died (* Let us hope this does nto happen *) and you did not have a clear successor? Would you then be without a master (* Ronin *) and then must find a new master and pledge you servitude to them? Or could you then assume the title of MAster yourself and accepth apprentices?

branch masters have died before, but we've always found someone to take over the branch. Kaiso died over 20 years ago; the current head of WSKO is his daughter, Kancho.
I can't become a branch master myself until I've passed all the requisite exams, and right now, I'm just not good enough.

 

[twinkletoes]

Well, I guess that answers the initial question of this thread.

It sounds like Shorinji practitioners take their studies as much more of a lifestyle-commitment than a recreation or a hobby-type pursuit. Due also the the Japanese emphasis on loyalty and on family relations (including adopted family), I guess that explains why it sounds so strict compared to US schools.

Wow.

~TT

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
Well, I guess that answers the initial question of this thread.

It sounds like Shorinji practitioners take their studies as much more of a lifestyle-commitment than a recreation or a hobby-type pursuit. Due also the the Japanese emphasis on loyalty and on family relations (including adopted family), I guess that explains why it sounds so strict compared to US schools.

Wow.

~TT

This isn't a US/Japan thing. There are Shorinji Kempo branches in the US as well. I myself started training in London.