on the yang family long form

[Sunrise]

Thank you for that info. I know it has been awhile since you posted it and I never got around to saying thanks :asian:

So then the snake, tiger, and crane style are basically the different methods of performing the yang form, or are they different forms with many similiarities? Does that even make sense?

They are basically different methods employed on the thame basic form. Of course, every teacher has his own slight variation of the form. In our Snakestyle taiji the form is tranferred from Yang Sau Chung to Ip Tai Tak to Bob Boyd to all of his students. Ip said that it should now be taught open, and not only in a father son lineage. So "our" form is a wee bit different then the Gin Soon Chu form that is itself mighty different from the King Hung Chu form in regards of how the "play pipa" or "snake creeps down" is performed, for instance, but the sequence and general outer performance is quite the same. The inner work on the execution is the real difference.

 

[East Winds]

Sunrise,

As a Tradiitonal Yang Family taijiquan practitioner (Yang Zhen Ji lineage) I would be interested to hear more about your expression of "The inner work on the execution is the real difference".

Very best wishes

 

[Sunrise]

Well,
lets take a look the most opposite variants, the crane and the snake.
In cranestyle you more or less let your bodyweight sink itself into your legs, have a 70/30 stance, turn the body and shoulderareas only on a horizontal level and stay generally most relaxed with rounded shoulders.
In snakestyle you are shifting your bodyweight more conscious to and fro, employ your sinews and deep micro muscles much more, have to have a 100/0 stance with all the additional power that this requires from the kwa. Also you "tilt, screw and snake" your whole body from position to position, thus integrating the coremuscles from the spinal and ribcage area much much more. You are also contracting and expanding much mor, working plenty on "hollow chest, raise back" combined with stretches according to the idea of application.
The shoulders are set back and kept there.
These are some of the "inner" differences, that I find at the moment.

regards,
Sunrise

 

[East Winds]

Sunrise,

Interesting!! Can you say which member of the Yang family introduced these "systems" and why?

Regards

 

[Sunrise]

Well,
most agree upon Yang Chen Fu as the great "spreader" AND the great "changer" of Yang tai chi chuan as well, but my personal believe and experience in day to day live is, that almot everyone had a hand in it, not only YCF.
As GM Ip has told there was allways a certain style transmitted within only the family, in the father/son lineage, and something a bit (or a lot) changed to the outside. The snakestyle was the "inner" style of the family, the tiger and crane where taught to the outside.
This way of teaching is/was usual in all kinds of areas, be it external or internal MA schools, or any kind of bussiness.
You keep the true secrets within, for your own benefit, and only teach enough good stuff to the outside to look good, make a lot of money, and have a great reputation. But a bit is mostly kept within, to be brilliant over the other real great guys, and to keep an advantage for the own family/company at later times or old age. So keeping secrets was a very natural thing to do.
Nowadays there are more effective ways for self-defense, a normally good working police system, and a generall more open set of mind, so former secrets start to unravel. Also there is this "pain in the ***" invention called videotaping. A master gets "caught" on video, when he explains for example fa-jin, and then demonstrating it afterwards. You hear and see what he explains, and you see (again and again) what he does, and you start to notice that there is something different in his demonstration, something that he did not explain, either on purpos, or on lack of teaching skills. You don´t quite get what is is, maybe a little added move in the hip area, or whatever, and then you start to explore this, and search for answers.
In the west, we have an incredible good education, know about biomechanics, physiotherapy, bodyworks in general and the psychological force of singlemindedness pursuit of a goal - or a move. We start to throw 1 and one together and come up with a rather good explanation of the ominous word "Chi / Qi" or Jin (applied chi) and then we nag different teachers about our research, and slowly get the picture, they have not told us everything - for what reason soever.
Same reason, as I stated elsewhere on a forum, why your and mine country, and many others, only sell 4th or 5th grade weapons to interested neighbouring countries. They want to make money, want them to be able to defend themselves a bit, but they keep the big guns only to themselves, and mostly for good reason - you can transfer that directly to martial arts.

Now think this through.
You are a taiji master of great skill, and you teach your main son, or your heartchoosen disciple in the whole curriculum. You want to ensure that you and he stay superior, so when another student wants to learn it, you take him in for sure, for you have to make a living (at least). You teach him about 90% of your skill, which makes him still incredible good, and tell him that he now has only to train on for many years so he develops an as great chi as your self and thats it. Still you and your number 1 still have some aces up your sleeves, in case he turns upon you...insurance.

The later very advanced student starts to teach himself, and for the same reasons as yourself he teaches only 90% of what he knows....... see where this leads?

This is why there are so many diverse styles out there, not only in taiji, but in mostly all martial arts.

So now students see there are different ways of doing the same form, and they get labeled, Large, medium or small frame, snakestyle, tigerstyle, crane....whatyoumightcallit.

I do not emply that one style is simply better then the other, in fact this diversity adds to taiji I think, for now there is something out for everyone, people just have to look a bit closer to see what to buy...

 

[East Winds]

Sunset,

Thanks. Now you have told me everything I need to know about your Taiji knowledge.

Very best wishes

 

[grappling_mandala]

Sorry to burst any bubbles, but watch Chen Man Chings 37. He didn't change anything other then bringing his own personality into the form. Look at his posture. That's him.

Chen Man Chings 37 is almost identical to Yang Cheng Fu's 3rd section.

Simply put? He taught the 3rd section of the original 108/103/111, etc.

Might as well learn the long form and draw from what Chen Man Ching did.

Once you learn the principles of a movement you can see variations in other forms that are simply different directions of transitions through the same postures... we have a rich history to draw from here. The various styles are brimming with body wisdom. Yang (expansive), Sun(compact), Chen(round), etc. Go watch Wudang taiji and spot all the different ways they use Single Whip and Grasp Sparrow. Taiji is an amazing art. Full of variations and universal body principles.

Nice dialog here.

Thanks

GM

 

[grydth]

GM, I have never heard that assertion regarding the Cheng Man Ching form....perhaps it is my limitation of knowledge, but I do not see that at all when examining the forms together.

 

[grappling_mandala]

GM, I have never heard that assertion regarding the Cheng Man Ching form....perhaps it is my limitation of knowledge, but I do not see that at all when examining the forms together.

I must partially take back my statement. Upon further review the CMC form appears to be composed of a kind of condensation of the long form: I have noted the parrallels below. It appears that a lot of the connective structure has been removed.

The first list is CMC's 37 the second and third are excerpts from different translations of the long form.

Chen Man Ching 37

kinda like the first section?
Preparation
Beginning
Left Ward-Off
Right Ward-Off
Roll Back, Press, and Push
Turn the Body and Lower the Hands
Single Whip
Lift Hands
Shoulder Strike
White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Brush Knee, Twist Step
Strum the Lute
Brush Knee, Twist Step
Step Forward, Move, Parry, and Punch
Apparent Close-Up
Cross Hands

pieces of the second section
Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain
Ward-Off, Roll Back, Press, and Push
Turn the Body and Lower the Hands
Diagonal Single Whip
Fist Under Elbow
Step Back to Repulse the Monkey
Diagonal Flying
Cloud Hands

parts of the third section
Descending Single Whip
Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg
Right Toe Kick
Left Toe Kick
Turn Body, Heel Kick
Brush Knee, Twist Step
Step Forward and Plant a Punch
Step Forward to Right Ward-Off
Roll Back, Press, and Push
Turn the Body and Lower the Hands
Single Whip
Fair Lady Works Shuttles
Left Ward-Off
Right Ward-Off, Roll Back, Press, and Push
Turn the Body and Lower the Hands
Descending Single Whip
Step Up to Seven Stars
Step Back to Ride the Tiger
Turn Body, Lotus Kick
Draw a Bow to Shoot the Tiger
Step Forward, Move, Parry, and Punch
Apparent Close-Up
Cross Hands
Close T'ai Chi

Two Versions of the last two sections of the Long Form (YCF 108):

56 Tiger Returns to Mountain
57 Grasping Sparrows Tail
58 Horizontal Single Whip
59 Part Horses Mane Right
60 Part Horses Mane Left
61 Part Horses Mane Right
62 Ward Off Left
63 Grasping Sparrows Tail
64 Single Whip
65 Fair Lady Left
66 Fair Lady Right
67 Fair Lady Left
68 Fair Lady Right
69 Ward Off Left
70 Grasping Sparrows Tail
71 Single Whip
72 Wave Hands Like Clouds
73 Single Whip
74 Snake Creeps Down
75 Golden Cock Left
76 Golden Cock Right
77 Repulse Monkey Right
78 Repulse Monkey Left
79 Repulse Monkey Right
80 Diagonal Slant Flying
81 Raise Hands, Shoulder
82 White Crane
83 Brush Left Knee
84 Needle at Sea Bottom
85 Fan Through Back
86 White Snake Darts Tongue
87 Parry Punch
88 Ward Off Right
89 Grasp Sparrows Tail
90 Single Whip
91 Wave Hands Like Clouds
92 Single Whip
93 High Pat on Horse
94 Plain Crossed Hands
95 Turn and Cross Kick
96 Step up, Punch Crotch
97 Ward Off Right
98 Grasp Sparrows Tail
99 Single Whip
100 Snake Creeps Down
101 Seven Stars
102 Step Back to Tiger
103 Lotus Kick
104 Draw Bow Shoot Tiger
105 Deflect Parry Punch
106 Apparent Withdraw. Push
107 Cross Hands
108 Conclusion


Transition Form (Guo Du Shi)
64. Wardoff, Rollback, Press, and Push Forward (Peng, Lu, Ji, An)
65. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
66. The Wild Horse Parts Its Mane: Right (You Ye Ma Fen Zong)
67. The Wild Horse Parts Its Mane: Left (Zuo Ye Ma Fen Zong)
68. The Wild Horse Parts Its Mane: Right (You Ye Ma Fen Zong)
69. Grasp the Sparrow's Tail: Left (Zuo Lan Que Wei)
70. Wardoff, Rollback, Press, and Push Forward (Peng, Lu, Ji, An)
71. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
72. Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttle: Left (Zuo Yu Nu Chuan Suo)
73. Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttle: Right (You Yu Nu Chuan Suo)
74. Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttle: Left (Zuo Yu Nu Chuan Suo)
75. Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttle: Right (You Yu Nu Chuan Suo)
76. Grasp the Sparrow's Tail: Left (Zuo Lan Que Wei)
77. Wardoff, Rollback, Press, and Push Forward (Peng, Lu, Ji, An)
78. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
79. Wave Hands in the Clouds: Right (You Yun Shou)
80. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
81. Snake Creeps Down (She Shen Xia Shi)
82. Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg: Right (You Jin Ji Du Li)
83. Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg: Left (Zuo Jin Ji Du Li)
84. Step Back and Repulse the Monkey: Left (Zuo Dao Nian Hou)
85. Diagonal Flying (Xie Fei Shi)
86. Lift Hands to the Up Posture (Ti Shou Shang Shi)
87. White Crane Spreads Its Wings (Bai He Liang Chi)
88. Brush Knee and Step Forward: Left (Zuo Lou Xi Yao Bu)
89. Pick Up the Needle from the Sea Bottom (Hai Di Lao Zhen)
90. Fan Back (Shan Tong Bei)
91. White Snake Turns Its Body and Spits Poison (Zhuan Shen Bai She Tu Xin)
92. Step Forward, Deflect Downward, Parry and Punch (Jin Bu Ban Lan Chui)
93. Step Forward, Wardoff, Rollback, Press, and Push Forward (Shang Bu, Peng, Lu, Ji, An)
94. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
95. Wave Hands in the Clouds: Right (You Yun Shou)
96. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
97. Stand High to Search Out the Horse (Gao Tan Ma)
98. Cross Hands (Shi Zi Shou)
99. Turn and Kick (Zhuan Shen Shi Zi Tui)
100. Brush Knee and Punch Down (Lou Xi Zhi Dang Chui)
101. Step Forward, Wardoff, Rollback, Press, and Push Forward (Shang Bu, Peng, Lu, Ji, An)
102. Single Whip (Dan Bian)
103. Snake Creeps Down (She Shen Xia Shi)
104. Step Forward to the Seven Stars (Shang Bu Qi Xing)
105. Step Back and Ride the Tiger (Tui Bu Kua Hu)
106. Turn the Body and Sweep the Lotus with the Leg (Zhuan Shen Bai Lian)
107. Draw the Bow and Shoot the Tiger (Wan Gong She Hu)
108. Twist the Body and Circle the Fist (Pie Shen Chui)
109. Step Forward, Deflect Downward, Parry and Punch (Jin Bu Ban Lan Chui)
110. Seal Tightly (Ru Feng Si Bi)
111. Embrace the Tiger and Return to the Mountain (Bao Hu Gui Shan)
112. Close Taiji (He Taiji)
113. Return to Original Stance (Taiji Huan Yuan)

 

[marlon]

what of the differences btwn Master Fu's form and master Yang Jun's way of doing the form? What of the claims of Master Fu that he inherited the leadership of the Yang style taiji? I know luois Swaim chose to continue his studies with Master Yang Jun after the elder Master Fu died rather than stay with his son. Curiuos. any thoughts?

marlon

 

[marlon]

what of the differences btwn Master Fu's form and master Yang Jun's way of doing the form? What of the claims of Master Fu that he inherited the leadership of the Yang style taiji? I know luois Swaim chose to continue his studies with Master Yang Jun after the elder Master Fu died rather than stay with his son. Curiuos. any thoughts? Looking for info and discussion not attacks and defenses of teachers and styles

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

what of the differences btwn Master Fu's form and master Yang Jun's way of doing the form? What of the claims of Master Fu that he inherited the leadership of the Yang style taiji? I know luois Swaim chose to continue his studies with Master Yang Jun after the elder Master Fu died rather than stay with his son. Curiuos. any thoughts? Looking for info and discussion not attacks and defenses of teachers and styles

marlon

If you mean Master Fu as Fu Zhongwen basically Fu is, or was, better and had a better understanding of what Yang Taijiquan is and Fu Zhongwen had a much better teacher.

As to why Fu claimed he inherited leadership, don't know exactly but Fu Zhongwen was married into the Yang family I believe.

As to Louis Swam, couldn't tell you but it could be Yang politics which can get pretty nasty. For the real answer you would have to ask Louis Swam