On a first time real use

[splazzatch]

Hi guys, I don't post very often I spend more time reading than posting. However I thought I would share something on here that happened a few days ago.

First a little background. I work with Juvenile Deliquents in a group home setting. These kids range between 14-18 years of age and have all broken the law in some way varying from Drug and gun crimes to simply not getting along with family. My unit is a non-secure unit and our kids are usually not violent.

I have had a few occassions to use my self-defense training but it was always a kid trying to prove he was tough or just horsing around. Until this past Friday.

We have a resident who is 5'5" 150lbs. and not very strong. I am 6'5" 250lbs and study shotokan.

This resident refused to go upstairs and get his stuff for bed because he found out that he would be staying with us for 4 more months. He swore at me and said I would have to drag him up the steps. I said okay and went to escort him (term used in my unit for placing one hand on the shoulder and one hand on his arm), I got him standing up and he swung at me. I got my head out of the way and he hit my glasses. He then came to me and we went to the ground he was on top of me starting to punch me so I wrapped my legs around him and came back on top. I had this kid on the ground face down with his left arm straight up behind him. He tried to puch me with his right hand and I just lifted his left arm higher and he stopped. When he said he would behave I started to let him up. I stepped over him and let go of his shoulder, I still had his left wrist in my left hand. When I was half over him he started to come around and try to attack again. This time I just laid down and put him in an arm bar with my knee nicely positioned over his neck so that if he squirmed he couldn't breath. We stayed like that for 10 minutes while he calmed down and decided to behave.

This is the first time I actually had to use my martial arts training to defend from being seriously injured. I know what my mistakes were and I talked to my Sensei about it and discussed some other things I could have done.

When he came down on top of me to start I thought to myself "I'm going home for dinner no matter what it takes." When I had him in an arm bar I thought to myself that I could really hurt this kid and that this stuff really works. When I practiced all my self-defense it was like okay this is what Sensei wants to do now that's fine but now it kind of clicked...

I just thought I would share this with some people who may have gone through the same thing...

 

[MJS]

Glad to hear that everything turned out ok for you. One thing that caught my eye was when you said this:

This time I just laid down and put him in an arm bar with my knee nicely positioned over his neck so that if he squirmed he couldn't breath. We stayed like that for 10 minutes while he calmed down and decided to behave.

There have been many cases at both the physc. hospital and one of the juv. facilities here in CT. in which residents were held down and ended up dying due to the inability to breath. Now, I do not know the rules/regs. for your facility, so I don't want to say that your method of restraint was correct or incorrect, but it was something that caught my attention. What are the policies at your facility for restraints?

Overall, it seems like you defended the attack well. I would be cautious though when it comes to doing something that effects the breathing.

Mike

 

[green meanie]

All in all I can't help but be impressed with the way you handled yourself in this situation. Your profile lists your main art as Shotokan yet it seems to me that you were quite aware of what to do while you were rolling around on the ground with this kid. Is this the result of training given to you by your employer or is this training that you received at your school? Just curious. Either way, it sounds like things went well enough for you.

 

[jdinca]

Well done. I'm glad it worked out for the best and no one got hurt.

 

[splazzatch]

so I don't want to say that your method of restraint was correct or incorrect, but it was something that caught my attention. What are the policies at your facility for restraints?

This was the most wrong restraint I could use. It was breaking every single rule in the unit. I did not restrict his breathing but we are only taught four restraints that we are allowed to use at work...only one of them keeps everyone safe. The other three place the person doing the restraint in such great harm it is a wonder more counselors having been hurt. My supervisor has placed me on a 30 day probationary period for it and stated that I can't do that. When I told her that I did what I needed to in order to keep people safe she said "You have to do what you have to do."

In response to my ground training I have previous training from King Cobra Karate and it's Goshin style of karate. However the Sensei who taught me about it emphasized everything and we learned a little of everything including Grappling.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Glad to hear you survive. You know you have rules to follow(laws). My best friend worked at a "boys" home(more like a prison). These kids are not your everyday boys, many have murder,rape,rob,beat-up old ladys, and do not care about anything. Most have been arrested so many times, nothing scares them.

They will attack you every chance they get....yet you have to follow the "rules" of restraints....the boys can attack you with anything.

Life is full of lessons....you are learning a few here....No one can say you were right or wrong..because they do not know the kids, enviroment and so............Aloha

 

[Touch Of Death]

This was the most wrong restraint I could use. It was breaking every single rule in the unit. I did not restrict his breathing but we are only taught four restraints that we are allowed to use at work...only one of them keeps everyone safe. The other three place the person doing the restraint in such great harm it is a wonder more counselors having been hurt. My supervisor has placed me on a 30 day probationary period for it and stated that I can't do that. When I told her that I did what I needed to in order to keep people safe she said "You have to do what you have to do."

In response to my ground training I have previous training from King Cobra Karate and it's Goshin style of karate. However the Sensei who taught me about it emphasized everything and we learned a little of everything including Grappling.

Cobra Kai!!!!

 

[swiftpete]

What was he thinking attacking someone who's a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier? He was probably taking advantage of the fact he knew you would hold back so just thought he would try and get a few in. I would imagine he would've been in some trouble if you'd actually seriously fought him.
The people that are telling you what you should and shouldn't have done weren't there. (Not talking about the people on this forum by the way.) If he attacked you with full intent to hurt you and you restrained him without injury i think you did a good job really. You sound like a pretty patient man!

 

[Nanalo74]

What was he thinking attacking someone who's a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier? He was probably taking advantage of the fact he knew you would hold back so just thought he would try and get a few in. I would imagine he would've been in some trouble if you'd actually seriously fought him.
The people that are telling you what you should and shouldn't have done weren't there. (Not talking about the people on this forum by the way.) If he attacked you with full intent to hurt you and you restrained him without injury i think you did a good job really. You sound like a pretty patient man!

I've worked in similar facilities and what I can say is that when a child is in the midst of a crisis cycle he's not thinking. He wants what he wants and he'll do what he can to get it. That's what landed him in there in the first place. Many of these kids have been diagnosed as emotionally disturbed or have some other type of psychiatric or psychological diagnosis.

Sounds like the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention model is being used or something similar which allows certain types of restraints. The only one that really works is the team model unless you're restraining a very small child.

I say you did the right thing. I would agree with Mike that you have to be careful with restricting the breathing. That can get ugly fast. I have plenty of stories from my time in such facilities. I've seen teachers and staff permanently injured trying to follow the restraint model. I used it when possible, but always with modifications to ensure my safety and the safety of my colleagues and when I had to throw it out the window and use my MA training I did.

Just my two cents.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[sgtmac_46]

This was the most wrong restraint I could use. It was breaking every single rule in the unit. I did not restrict his breathing but we are only taught four restraints that we are allowed to use at work...only one of them keeps everyone safe. The other three place the person doing the restraint in such great harm it is a wonder more counselors having been hurt. My supervisor has placed me on a 30 day probationary period for it and stated that I can't do that. When I told her that I did what I needed to in order to keep people safe she said "You have to do what you have to do."

In response to my ground training I have previous training from King Cobra Karate and it's Goshin style of karate. However the Sensei who taught me about it emphasized everything and we learned a little of everything including Grappling.

Let me put in my two cents...not on your use of force itself, but rather, on the policies and procedures in the kind of group facility that you work in.

A little background, i'm a police officer and have been for over 10 years. I'm also a defensive tactics instructor, as well has having a background in martial arts. I have a real interest in the differences between different polices and programs, the motives for writting a given policies, and the ultimate real world consequences.

In addition, my girlfriend worked for some time in a care facility of the sort you work at. I'm sure your policies are very similar to theirs, very restricted, allowing you very little actual recourse. In addition, they have a program of instructor in state endorsed control methods, usually called 'Therapeutic control' methods.

Now, I observed these polices and procedures and came to a conclusion. They all share one thing in common....the policies are designed to be observed STRICTLY with ZERO deviation. The policies generally state that employee deviation will result in termination.

They seem designed entirely to create an environment where the staff will be forced to end up using improper methods, for the purposes of gaining compliance. It's often 'winked' and 'nodded' that you may have to ignore the policies from time to time, based on practical considerations.

If, however, these methods result in accusations of abuse, the facility can point to their policy manual, and cite the fact that the employee was trained in the 'proper method' and deviated from such, therefore showing the facility to have zero liability, as they can document proper training. Moreover, they'll simply fire the employee, so they can document property supervision.

Now, that being said, in reference to the 'therapeutic techiques' they are inherently useless in controlling violent and combative subjects, even young ones. Moreover, it is my opinion that they are inherently dangerous, as they result in prolonged physical restraint, usually in some sort of prone position.

The problem is that they designed around immobilizing the subject entirely. Pain compliance and other leverage techniques are shunned, as they create the risk of soft-tissue damage. So, they are replaced with 'therapeutic holds' which, if the subject is only mildy combative, may work....or may further escalate the situation.

However, if the subject is EXTREMELY combative, then the 'therapeutic holds' may require an extremely prolonged struggle, possibly resulting in a scenario known as 'Positional Asphyxia' where the exertion, along with elevated cardio-vascular output, along with a position where the weight of one (or more staff) are restricting breathing, and the subject can go in to cadiac or respiratory arrest, and ultimately, die.

Contrast this with what I teach officers. Gain control immediately, and then handcuff. If the subject ends up on the ground, being controlled by an officer, once he is handcuffed, he's placed in a vertical position (usually seated) where he can breath easily. This conflict last less than 2 minutes, and results in a controlled subject rapidly, and without the risks inherent in prolonged struggle with all but the most violent, strong and combative subjects. The risks? Mostly possibly soft-tissue damage, occassional dislocated joints.

In addition, it seems as though 'therapeutic holds' almost seem to encourage violence among some subjects.

Again, these are some of my observations about the unintended consequences of 'kinder, more gentle' techniques. I'd be interested in anyone else's experiences on the subject.

 

[MJS]

The people that are telling you what you should and shouldn't have done weren't there.

While this may be the case, if there are policies in place as to how to handle situations like this, they have to be followed. If cameras are in use, your actions can be caught on tape and possibly be used against you.

Mike

 

[MJS]

This was the most wrong restraint I could use. It was breaking every single rule in the unit. I did not restrict his breathing but we are only taught four restraints that we are allowed to use at work...only one of them keeps everyone safe. The other three place the person doing the restraint in such great harm it is a wonder more counselors having been hurt. My supervisor has placed me on a 30 day probationary period for it and stated that I can't do that. When I told her that I did what I needed to in order to keep people safe she said "You have to do what you have to do."

In response to my ground training I have previous training from King Cobra Karate and it's Goshin style of karate. However the Sensei who taught me about it emphasized everything and we learned a little of everything including Grappling.

I'm a bit confused here. Staff are taught 4 methods of restraint, but only 1 is safe to use? I would think it would make more sense to teach things that are going to work, rather than something that is going to put people in danger. I do hear where you're coming from. I worked in Corrections for a short time. In the academy, we were taught methods of restraint, SD, handcuffing, etc. I looked at some of the methods being taught and thought, "My God! If I have to do this, I'm going to get seriously hurt!" I could think of much better methods, but you're between a rock and a hard place.

As for the 30 day warning that you received. I have to say that I disagree with your supervisor, and if you're able to fight this or go to a union, I'd do it. It seems that she acknowledges the fact that you violated the rules, but also that you did what you had to do. I don't understand how you can get in trouble for doing something that they are teaching. Again, if its so bad, why not change it??

Mike

 

[KenpoTex]

I feel for you. While I've not been stuck working in a place that mandates the use of ineffective techniques, I've known people that have.

I have a good friend (who is Missouri P.O.S.T. certified: PPCT, ASP, Monadonock, etc.) that is on the security staff at one of the hospitals here who had to go through some of this training. When he showed me what they had taught him to use for restraint/control and to defend against various attacks, I literally began laughing. I don't recall the name of the "system" that they taught but from what he told me, and from what I gathered from the course outline he showed me it is a complete joke.
The system was created, not by martial-artists, self-defense, or defensive-tactics instructors, but by a group of doctors. The person that taught his class was a nurse that admitted to him that she has no background or training whatsoever aside from this pathetic excuse for a system. However, she became very irate and "snippy" when he questioned the effectiveness of the material and pointed out the [numerous] flaws in the system. For example, their method for defending against a sleeper/RNC type choke is to "massage" the arm to cause the muscles to relax. As if you're going to be conscious long enough to pull that off if someone really sets that choke...please *rolls eyes*

It's sad that these facilities place such unrealistic restrictions on their employees and require them to try to use ineffective and unsafe techniques. They would be much better served with a system like PPCT or CLAMP that actually has some chance of working.

 

[MJS]

I feel for you. While I've not been stuck working in a place that mandates the use of ineffective techniques, I've known people that have.

I have a good friend (who is Missouri P.O.S.T. certified: PPCT, ASP, Monadonock, etc.) that is on the security staff at one of the hospitals here who had to go through some of this training. When he showed me what they had taught him to use for restraint/control and to defend against various attacks, I literally began laughing. I don't recall the name of the "system" that they taught but from what he told me, and from what I gathered from the course outline he showed me it is a complete joke.
The system was created, not by martial-artists, self-defense, or defensive-tactics instructors, but by a group of doctors. The person that taught his class was a nurse that admitted to him that she has no background or training whatsoever aside from this pathetic excuse for a system. However, she became very irate and "snippy" when he questioned the effectiveness of the material and pointed out the [numerous] flaws in the system. For example, their method for defending against a sleeper/RNC type choke is to "massage" the arm to cause the muscles to relax. As if you're going to be conscious long enough to pull that off if someone really sets that choke...please *rolls eyes*

It's sad that these facilities place such unrealistic restrictions on their employees and require them to try to use ineffective and unsafe techniques. They would be much better served with a system like PPCT or CLAMP that actually has some chance of working.

My God, that is sad, but very typical. People who have no idea on a subject, in this case the doctor and nurse, and they're the ones teaching SD!:idunno: I vote for having them worry about whats going on in the ER and leave the SD to someone that can teach something effective.

For example, their method for defending against a sleeper/RNC type choke is to "massage" the arm to cause the muscles to relax. As if you're going to be conscious long enough to pull that off if someone really sets that choke.

:rofl: :lol:

Mike

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Cobra Kai!!!!

Strike fast, strike hard, no mercy sensei!

Okay, honestly, I have no idea where that came from.

 

[Cujo]

Massage the arm? That is the craziest thing I ever heard of! Those are the kind of people that are always showing sympathy towards prisoners that we have to take to the hospital to get cleared or for detox. That is, right up to the point where the bad guy tries to be violent with THEM, and then its all, "Kick that guys but". Stay safe.

Pax
Cujo

 

[sgtmac_46]

I feel for you. While I've not been stuck working in a place that mandates the use of ineffective techniques, I've known people that have.

I have a good friend (who is Missouri P.O.S.T. certified: PPCT, ASP, Monadonock, etc.) that is on the security staff at one of the hospitals here who had to go through some of this training. When he showed me what they had taught him to use for restraint/control and to defend against various attacks, I literally began laughing. I don't recall the name of the "system" that they taught but from what he told me, and from what I gathered from the course outline he showed me it is a complete joke.
The system was created, not by martial-artists, self-defense, or defensive-tactics instructors, but by a group of doctors. The person that taught his class was a nurse that admitted to him that she has no background or training whatsoever aside from this pathetic excuse for a system. However, she became very irate and "snippy" when he questioned the effectiveness of the material and pointed out the [numerous] flaws in the system. For example, their method for defending against a sleeper/RNC type choke is to "massage" the arm to cause the muscles to relax. As if you're going to be conscious long enough to pull that off if someone really sets that choke...please *rolls eyes*

It's sad that these facilities place such unrealistic restrictions on their employees and require them to try to use ineffective and unsafe techniques. They would be much better served with a system like PPCT or CLAMP that actually has some chance of working.

Well CLAMP anyway, Chris and Larry Lein developed and pretty workable system. I'll bite my tongue about PPCT, though.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Massage the arm? That is the craziest thing I ever heard of! Those are the kind of people that are always showing sympathy towards prisoners that we have to take to the hospital to get cleared or for detox. That is, right up to the point where the bad guy tries to be violent with THEM, and then its all, "Kick that guys but". Stay safe.

Pax
Cujo

Yeah, they're showing sympathy....as long as they don't have to control them. If someone ever said, 'Here, you take him' they'd start sputtering...'uh, no, no, no, uhm, no'.

 

[splazzatch]

The restraints we were taught come from the Theraputic Model called "Safe Crisis Management." and My organization teaches "Reality Therapy and Choice Theory."

If anyone knows about this you'd know that this is a load of bunk....I find SCM and RT/CT to be a load of crap and that there are better ways to work with kids but alas...I need a paycheck.

 

[KenpoTex]

Well CLAMP anyway, Chris and Larry Lein developed and pretty workable system. I'll bite my tongue about PPCT, though.

I'm sure you know more about PPCT than I do...I've heard both good and bad. I've been through CLAMP and thought it was pretty good.