Old Judo vs. new Judo

[matt.m]

Maybe it is me. However I have been to a good bit of judo schools over the last few years. I find one thing sticking out like a sore thumb, at least to me. There is not enough ground work. Not enough taught, not enough emphasized, no one really cares.

This is really sad to me, a huge part of Judo is the ground work and submissions.

Who else has noticed this? Any reasoning why? I am starting to see more "Sport" over "Self-Defense" schools. Sorry, that isn't the Judo I learned or teach.

 

[punisher73]

I have seen both, one school that I visited had it split 50/50. One day was spent just on groundwork, the other day was spent on throws.

I think alot of people in general want the sport side of things. That is why you see so many sport TKD, sport BJJ, and other things that don't teach the whole art or techniques outside of the rules. This is not a slam on the mentioned arts, just my experience on what I have seen offered in my area.

 

[elder999]

I have seen both, one school that I visited had it split 50/50. One day was spent just on groundwork, the other day was spent on throws.

I think alot of people in general want the sport side of things. That is why you see so many sport TKD, sport BJJ, and other things that don't teach the whole art or techniques outside of the rules. This is not a slam on the mentioned arts, just my experience on what I have seen offered in my area.

It's like a lot of things, really-it's just progressed to where it has with so many judo schools because of judo's status as an Olympic sport.

Hardly anyone teaches judo kata anymore, either-always a pleasant surprise to find a school that does.....

Go into any BJJ school-time was, almost all the nage waza from judo were taught in BJJ. Now, they generally start grappling from the knees, work exclusively on groundwork, and do takedowns in the period preceding a competition-and only "wrestling" takedowns: single and double leg, usually. Ask them about it, and a lot of them will tell you that :judo throws don't work." :lol:

 

[Steve]

It's like a lot of things, really-it's just progressed to where it has with so many judo schools because of judo's status as an Olympic sport.

Hardly anyone teaches judo kata anymore, either-always a pleasant surprise to find a school that does.....

Go into any BJJ school-time was, almost all the nage waza from judo were taught in BJJ. Now, they generally start grappling from the knees, work exclusively on groundwork, and do takedowns in the period preceding a competition-and only "wrestling" takedowns: single and double leg, usually. Ask them about it, and a lot of them will tell you that :judo throws don't work." :lol:

I don't know about judo, although I mentioned to matt.m that I would have loved to have taken it... if only I had stumbled into martial arts a decade sooner!

As for BJJ, there is definitely an emphasis at my school on groundwork. We have 2 takedown classes per week and one competition class where all sparring starts from standing. Otherwise, we start from our knees. Personally, I try to take the competition class when I can, but I'm lucky if I make three classes per week. And if I only get three, I try to make sure they're BJJ. As a result, my standup/takedown skills are admittedly lacking.

For the record, I've NEVER heard a BJJ guy say that Judo doesn't work. There's nothing but respect for Judo, afaik. It would be ridiculous for anyone to suggest that Judo takedowns don't work.

 

[jarrod]

where i train we practice judo, sambo, & jujitsu simultaneously. which all equals out to about a 50/50 split. a lot of the "pure" judo schools in the area omit newaza claiming that it isn't real judo. yet somehow we regularly tap & pin them at real judo tournaments.

jf

 

[matt.m]

That is my point. I do the best I can to concentrate on the big picture and total package. However, all too often I have heard "So and so has great Judo" I and my class go to a school visit. It comes randori time and my yellow belts stuffed their brown belts. Judo is just as focused on throws and grappling. Jeez, from my experience it seems that "Newaza isn't important to the lazy."

The Judo I learned and teach is "Fighting Judo" stand up to ground. Reversals to chokes, take down to submissions or any combination.

I admittedly on have a few students now whereas I at one time had plenty. However, I guess Judo was too hard for them.

where i train we practice judo, sambo, & jujitsu simultaneously. which all equals out to about a 50/50 split. a lot of the "pure" judo schools in the area omit newaza claiming that it isn't real judo. yet somehow we regularly tap & pin them at real judo tournaments.

jf

 

[jarrod]

you know what i would love to see happen in judo? lift any & all grip restrictions, & strictly enforce rules against passivity. INCLUDING on the ground. laying face down waiting for matte is not fighting.

jf

 

[lklawson]

A lot of what Judo is depends on the teacher, his preferences, and his lineage.

My school has a teacher who's retired LEO and his top ranking student is an ex-wrestler. You can guess what it goes like.

On top of that, HIS teacher is Bob Spraly who's philosophy and instruction is that Judo was intended first and foremost as a health and physical education tool (rebranded "Juido" to avoid arguments with certain Judoka). It's interesting because Bob was in visiting us from his Dojo (which he does periodically) and was giving a bit of a "from his perspective" history lesson to us (ahem) "young" guys. He was reminissing about how there was a major push in the late 50's and 60's to "sportorize" Judo in the interest of attracting more people. However, in his oppinion, that dramatically limited Judo and caused a whole generation of students to forget Judo's roots. It was all a bit academic to me because, well, I have MY own ideas about what Judo is (to me) and, besides that, the Dojo I attend seems to be a bit more balanced. But, still, I tucked away Bob's remembrances. Then, less than a week later, wouldn't you know it, I was reading BB Mag (yes, I still read it, even today - I'll do pennance later) and there on the last page where the editor trots out highlights from past issues from the days of yore, there was a reader letter. The reader writes in that Judo MUST be sported up to attract more mainstream attention. I looked at the issue date. Sure enough, 60's.

Anyway, the lineage and experience of the instructors there creates a very interesting atmosphere, I can tell you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I like Old Judo better than New.

I'm not currently in classes as I am planning a move to Texas and all nonessential expenses had to be cut which included monthly dojo fees, but for the 6 months I had of it, it seriously helped my Small Circle Jujitsu which I train alone at home/with the occasional private lesson as time/money permits.

I consider it a worthwhile addition to any training just for the physical conditioning and growing used to force-on-force in grappling range alone.

 

[teekin]

Well at the school I was at, we did Old School Judo, including Kata. The format was split 50/50 from throws to groundwork. I really will miss that place, it was what I imagine Judo should be, a Warriors Art.:samurai:
lori

 

[b.monki]

well it all depends what you mean old vs new... in the east bay theres an instructor who learned from okazaki who learned from kano, his style was very old and included judo chops and what not... my judo coach learned from wally jay who learned from okazaki and juan gomez who was okazakis top student which is considered an old style very hardcore very strict (im talking forced splits, old style judo squats, being sat on and bounced on while doing butterfly stretches, running with people on your back, it wasnt uncommont o leave bleeding with some broken fingers and toes) and the only way to get a belt was to either go to nationals or win em not many people stayed there was a total of like 12 students (one olympian with his fancy olympic team gi) when the jujitsu and aikido classes had well over 40 in each class... well i met the teacher at an art festival where they were demonstrating judo and he knew i was a student of siroy and kinda just grabbed me threw me a gi and forced me to participate while I was enjoying a snow cone and some hawaiian bbq :whip1: and i had only been in judo for 2 years and there black belts couldnt even hang with me... the newer schools scare me there just as bad as american TKD schools... we had an instructor from russia stay with us for a couple years sensei sophi (not sure on spelling but prononced so-fee) and he was the best judoka i have ever seen in my life the olympian couldnt even touch him he would morote with one hand using just his finger tips to show it was about leverage and not strength he moved like a grass hopper... i dont think newer style olympic judo could ever stand against old style kodokan judo it the training is like old school shaolin training...

 

[Aikicomp]

I teach old school Judo, which was what my teacher learned in the 50's. I also was fortunate enough to have a gentleman in our club who got his Sandan in Kodokan (sp?) Judo. When he threw he THREW!...When he did newaza he did NEWAZA!

I teach what I learned...Throws and newaza, what good is one without the other. IMO that would be limiting your technique and training.

Michael

 

[JudoJunkie]

I think the reason for the increased concentration on standing Judo (tachi waza) is the change in competition rules. You only have 10 seconds to make something happen on the mat before the referee stands you back up.