How far forward should the number five strike go? I feel I know the answer but I am having trouble putting it into words for a younger student who keeps extending his arm all the way out (almost like he's doing a fencing thrust, but at lower midsection level). I'd like to give him a simple rule rather than having to keep saying "that's too far--you'd have no power there" but not giving more specific advice. I'm doing it as a straight-out thrust, not the upward hooking variation, though I myself always know I'm at the end of the thrust when my left hand slaps my right bicep.
Number 5 Strike.
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
Maybe you can explain to him how far it should go by borrowing the 'immovable elbow' principle from Wing Chun. Basically, tell him not to extend his elbow more than a fist's width away from his body.
Cthulhu
Cthulhu
Have seen some styles emphasize using the opposing hand to stop the pokes at bend in the elbow so that thrusts don't hyperextend. I use this method as well. With knife applications, it also protects the arteries there which are vulnerable when thrust is thrown.
My $0.02
My $0.02
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Have him thrust a heavy bag from different ranges; let him feel the differnce in power, balance, and so on himself. That is probably the easiest way for him to get the instinctive feel that is so hard to put into words.
eternalwhitebelt
Green Belt
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I have found that the right distance is just something that comes with time. You keep repeating to him what is correct when he does it, for positive reinforcement as well. It will just come with time.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
I had been thinking of this but unfortunatley I lack the equipment. I may just have him use a tree out back. The feedback from that may well be the quickest way. But I also feel for myself as an instructor that I'd like a verbal description, like the fist's width idea (though I go nearly two fists away on this strike).
I'm sure that time will be a necessary component as well!
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
If you don't have access to a heavy bag (or a heavy bag that you can randomly whack with sticks anyway...) you can also try using a kicking shield (with obviouls precautions...) A tree is probably too "dead" feeling to give good feedback. A good training tool is an old tire; scrounge one from a garage (they are happy to get rid of them; saves disposal fees), drill a hole in the tread, and bolt an eye-bolt in place. You now have a great stick target that you can hang from a rafter or tree (and if you have kids they can swing on it...)
The tire will blacken your sticks, so set aside one pair for on tire use.
As frustrating as it gets sometimes the language just doesnt have the words we need to describe certain actions. I found one of my best breakthroughs in teaching efficiency was when insted of trying endlessly to explain some minor tweak in a technique I got comfortable enough to just start grabbing students and positioning them through the move (ie turning a hip or an elbow in or out, turning a foot to point another way, etc).
The tire will blacken your sticks, so set aside one pair for on tire use.
As frustrating as it gets sometimes the language just doesnt have the words we need to describe certain actions. I found one of my best breakthroughs in teaching efficiency was when insted of trying endlessly to explain some minor tweak in a technique I got comfortable enough to just start grabbing students and positioning them through the move (ie turning a hip or an elbow in or out, turning a foot to point another way, etc).
Another method I use is having the students statically press their thrust against the brick walls in the gym where I teach. This also helps when exlain how and why we need the wrist to be properly aligned when we thrust and also shows how having the opposite leg and thrusting arm meeting at the point generates greater thrusting power as compared to reach (ie #6 with left foot forward as compared with right foot forward).
arnisandyz
Master Black Belt
You can "tell" him all you want, some things have to be felt like letting your two year old put there finger in a socket (not that anyone would do that to thier kid, Cthulhu). Best thing is to let them thrust at you in that manner in a sparring or sombrada situation and you let them feel why its not right by whatever method you choose. You should see a big lightbulb over your students head if you do it correctly.
arnisandyz
Master Black Belt
Depends on the weapon too. If it has a sharp point, you don't need much power and can get away with some extra extension. I would be mindful of telling people this is right and that is wrong, chances are someone who is very good at fighting that way might change your mind. I try to present it as there are many ways and show the advantages and disadvantages and let it be their choice.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
I've pointed out to him that with a sharp-tipped weapon it could work like he's doing it and indeed his thrust seems very fencing-like to me. (I have never fenced, but it looks to me like what fencers do.) For now we're focusing on sticks as sticks though and I think it's plain and simple wrong to overextend the #5 thrust. I've seen people use the #6/#10 at long range like that and the #7/#11 at moderate range and I have to admit that you may be right about the #5, but still I'd rather have him doing something more conservative, or rather mainstream, now. This is a twelve year old and I think he needs to learn the basic way first. Even at that age I too try to present the advantages/disadvantages viewpoint but I think I'd rather see him doing the #5 at a much more medio range.
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
The thrusting dynamic with a stick is a bit more sensitive; you can screw things up where you would "get away" with the same thing using a blade. I like to have my guys follow the 5 into an uppercut, but it sounds like you are trying to keep things basic for your student right now.
Something that may help him when he gets frustrated with the 6 and 7 is to show them first as entries to disarms and locks; whe he has the dynamic of using the stick for those moves down he will already see how to apply them as attacks.
Something that may help him when he gets frustrated with the 6 and 7 is to show them first as entries to disarms and locks; whe he has the dynamic of using the stick for those moves down he will already see how to apply them as attacks.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
But you still have each other, right? Tires are great training tools, heavy bags too, but before that stuff was invented, what did folks use?
I'm not advocating doing this full power - give me a little credit - but as posted upthread, use a toned down sparring situation and allow him to thrust the #5 from different angles to understand the range requirements...
I would train him on both the upward hooking method as well as the straight thrust...
Verbal explanation -
"The #5 thrust is meant to be used at X range, and as such requires that a certain amount of extension be used, but not so much as to provide either overextension (and therefore lack of balance and responsiveness) or an opening in your defense."
Maybe?
Then have him practice the thrust until he vomits. It took me a long time and many hyperextended elbows to get my punches right when I first learned them, but learn them I did. Through training. The explanation was good reference, but that wasn't what taught the muscles what to do...
My 2 yen...
I'm not advocating doing this full power - give me a little credit - but as posted upthread, use a toned down sparring situation and allow him to thrust the #5 from different angles to understand the range requirements...
I would train him on both the upward hooking method as well as the straight thrust...
Verbal explanation -
"The #5 thrust is meant to be used at X range, and as such requires that a certain amount of extension be used, but not so much as to provide either overextension (and therefore lack of balance and responsiveness) or an opening in your defense."
Maybe?
Then have him practice the thrust until he vomits. It took me a long time and many hyperextended elbows to get my punches right when I first learned them, but learn them I did. Through training. The explanation was good reference, but that wasn't what taught the muscles what to do...
My 2 yen...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #15
Definitely. I mentioned the uppercut and demonstrated it but am taking small steps at this age. I don't really like it as a straight thrust stick technique--bladed, sure, but not stick--so the upeprcut to my mind is actually a superior application, but I think o fthe straight thrust as the "fundamental" technique and the uppercut as a variation (that I also associate with a bladed weapon--the disemboweling technique with the edge reversed).
On a similar note, at a seminar I went to the instructor (Felipe Jose) had a similar numerada to that of Modern Arnis but always followed the #12 downward strike with "the thirteenth strike", basically making it rompida (reverse #12 with blade awareness). I liked that and add it in for my own practice but it's not what I teach.
The #6 and #7 went fine after I showed him the knife interpretations.
Yiliquan1, I'll try your explanation! Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
arnisandyz
Master Black Belt
I think this not only a problem with the #5 thrusting, but any strike with any weapon or emptyhand. Things develop in parallel. When he better understands his footwork mobility, he will realize he doesn't have to over extend to get a hit because use of proper footwork will put him in range and he will actually be hitting with his legs and not his arm. Just takes time.
Also,people tend to learn not to leave a hand out when it has potential to be whacked. I learned the hard way. You could tell me all day to keep my hand in, but when it got whacked over and over I adjusted, not because someone told me to do it, but because it hurt like hell.
Also,people tend to learn not to leave a hand out when it has potential to be whacked. I learned the hard way. You could tell me all day to keep my hand in, but when it got whacked over and over I adjusted, not because someone told me to do it, but because it hurt like hell.
T
The Mist
Guest
If you have your student do the #5 variation with the slight upward thrust, it will eliminate the hyperextension of the elbow. Then he will learn how far the thrust goes when he practices it for a while, and you can swith him to strait in if you feel the need to practice that skill.
T
The Mist
Guest
Make that switch not swith.
