Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

[Andrew Green]

I am not sure I quite understand what your position is. Do you feel that without some kind of MMA/UFC type experience in one's training, that in general, any other martial arts training is not to be trusted? If so, then what, in your opinion, has lead to the survival of these many systems over the many years in which MMA/UFC style approach did not exist?

Do you believe that for something to have value, it has to be fighting related?

There are many good reasons to practice traditional arts. Tai Chi is one I'd eventually like to have a go at. But not cause I want to learn to fight...

Trust is also a funny word. I believe I related it to web design up there. Is frontpage to be trusted? Well, yes, it can consitantly make web pages. But I trust being able to hand code and audit the stuff that any GUI editor produces a lot more.

My personal belief is that in order to make the most of something like Dreamweaver you need to know how to do everything it does for you in notepad. It's there to make things easier when possible, but if it fails you need to be able to fall back on the more reliable method of coding it by hand. If you want to later move into PHP or some other server language, you need html and css by hand.

For some people Dreamweaver is enough. For some piczo is enough. But to claim a dreamweaver user is a contender against a actual web programmer is silly.

But for many it is enough, learning is of no interest for them. For others even that is too much and they go to the McDojo (piczo).

I also believe that ONLY coding by hand is making your job trickier. Dreamweaver (traditional arts) can make things easier, depending on your objective.

Meantime, I will stand by my position that training in traditional martial arts, when done properly (and "properly" can mean many different things to many different people, and probably cannot be defined to everyone's satisfaction) can provide one with solid self-defense and fighting skills.

Yup, as using Dreamweaver can let you create some solid websites. But, it is no match for learning to code from scratch / MMA, then adding Dreamweaver / Traditional techniques to speed up things when possible.

If a simple wrist restraint will do the job, use it. If it fails you're in a fight, and that is MMA's strength.

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you believe that for something to have value, it has to be fighting related?


Yup, as using Dreamweaver can let you create some solid websites. But, it is no match for learning to code from scratch / MMA, then adding Dreamweaver / Traditional techniques to speed up things when possible.

If a simple wrist restraint will do the job, use it. If it fails you're in a fight, and that is MMA's strength.

First, no I do not believe that something has to be fighting related to have value, I was simply putting a little historical context into the topic. Most of us who spend a lifetime practicing the martial arts never have to actually use it to defend ourselves. For myself, I am happier for it. I train because I don't remember what it was like not to train. I love the arts, I do it because it is a passion. I don't run around looking for fights, but I try to keep the thought of the fight present in my mind when I train, to keep a sense of purpose in the movement itself.

So if I understand you correctly, in a nutshell this is what you believe: traditional martial arts, and training in a more traditional manner is all well and fine, but if some type of MMA/UFC kind of training is not part of the process, then you feel the training/material is questionable at best. Is that pretty close to the target?

 

[Andrew Green]

So if I understand you correctly, in a nutshell this is what you believe: traditional martial arts, and training in a more traditional manner is all well and fine, but if some type of MMA/UFC kind of training is not part of the process, then you feel the training/material is questionable at best. Is that pretty close to the target?

Nope, sounds like you are focusing too much on one area.

I think it is fine, productive training. How effective it is depends on the art and how it is trained. It is not as effective as having a solid grounding in being able to fight under MMA rules. But it can still be very effective.

Most people will never need the skills that a MMA fighter has, most people will never need to be able to write complex HTML in notepad. Those that can do that are better off then those that can't when it comes to fighting or web design.

But for the vast majority of the populations self-defence needs a solid traditional system is fine. The weaknesses of the system aren't likely to become an issue.

In fact for some people MMA has a bigger weakness, namely that's not what they want to do. That is the BIGGEST weakness to any system, the individual doesn't want to be doing that. And the biggest strength of any system is that they do want to be doing it.

But MMA is the filler, for when the weaknesses come up. That was what it was designed for, to exploit and fill in weaknesses in fighting systems. So if Wing Chun has a weakness, MMA is likely to have a fix. Same for any system.

MMA's fighting weakness, is that it lacks the simpler methods, that while they do have weaknesses are of use. Back to my example, Dreamweaver is of great use. But it has it's weaknesses, when those come up knowing how to code is a valuable asset.

Knowing how to code without knowing how to use Dreamweaver is also a weakness, it means a good chunk of your work code likely get done a lot quicker. The person that knows both is better off. Some jobs require one, others require the other. Some are best done with a combination.

Martial arts is the same. Looking at the fighting aspect of it MMA is the safety net. Other stuff is nice and might work better, but if it fails having that net is a nice thing

 

[Flying Crane]

Nope, sounds like you are focusing too much on one area.

I think it is fine, productive training. How effective it is depends on the art and how it is trained. It is not as effective as having a solid grounding in being able to fight under MMA rules. But it can still be very effective.

Most people will never need the skills that a MMA fighter has, most people will never need to be able to write complex HTML in notepad. Those that can do that are better off then those that can't when it comes to fighting or web design.

But for the vast majority of the populations self-defence needs a solid traditional system is fine. The weaknesses of the system aren't likely to become an issue.

In fact for some people MMA has a bigger weakness, namely that's not what they want to do. That is the BIGGEST weakness to any system, the individual doesn't want to be doing that. And the biggest strength of any system is that they do want to be doing it.

But MMA is the filler, for when the weaknesses come up. That was what it was designed for, to exploit and fill in weaknesses in fighting systems. So if Wing Chun has a weakness, MMA is likely to have a fix. Same for any system.

MMA's fighting weakness, is that it lacks the simpler methods, that while they do have weaknesses are of use. Back to my example, Dreamweaver is of great use. But it has it's weaknesses, when those come up knowing how to code is a valuable asset.

Knowing how to code without knowing how to use Dreamweaver is also a weakness, it means a good chunk of your work code likely get done a lot quicker. The person that knows both is better off. Some jobs require one, others require the other. Some are best done with a combination.

Martial arts is the same. Looking at the fighting aspect of it MMA is the safety net. Other stuff is nice and might work better, but if it fails having that net is a nice thing

Well, I think you hit it on the head when you said that if an art is not what someone wants to do, then that is the biggest weakness because they will not do the art. People find themselved drawn to different arts for many different reasons. Some are combat reasons, some are asthetic reasons, stylistic reasons, personality, and body-type reasons, etc. No one style will have the same appeal to everyone.

I think I understand your position better. I get your message, and I will acknowledge that you have made some valid points. I still believe that traditional training can be very effective in developing one's abilities, and that MMA type training is not necessary, but I do agree that traditional training alone, for most people, is probably not enough to be successful in a MMA/UFC type encounter. However, I also believe that experience and success in a MMA/UFC training/competition environment is also not a guarantee of success in a self-defense situation on the street. I think that this kind of training can do a lot to build toughness, confidence in one's abilities, and a high level of technical proficiency, but anything can happen on the street, and no matter how good someone is at any art, they can still be taken down. I think it's important to keep that in perspective, that's all.

 

[Andrew Green]

I also believe that experience and success in a MMA/UFC training/competition environment is also not a guarantee of success in a self-defense situation on the street.

For that we need Count Dante

But on that subject, I got this Bridge for sale, any takers?

 

[Flying Crane]

For that we need Count Dante

But on that subject, I got this Bridge for sale, any takers?

I've got $14.72 burning a hole in my pocket...I could get it converted to Canadian, if that makes the offer any more attractive...

 

[Andrew Green]

I've got $14.72 burning a hole in my pocket...I could get it converted to Canadian, if that makes the offer any more attractive...

Makes it 17.25... no, I'll hold out for a bigger sucker... Exchange rate isn't that big right now.

 

[arnisador]

It's another Wing Chun celebrity battle!

 

[bcbernam777]

The problem though, is that if people only train for things that cannot be tested, they are relying on assumption alone that the stuff will work. That is a slippery slope to be on as over time it will drift farther into speculation.

And it is impossible to test it well enough to really be meaningful. Are we to set up a double blind experiment where we get people to jump differently trained people and see who deals most effectively?

Most people will never get in a real fight. And if they do, how do we isolate what caused them to react in the way that they did? Did they win purely on physical attributes? Placebo type effect fromm thinking they would? kata?

No way of knowing in any statistically meaningful way.

So, because you can't really test it, and it's probably not gonna happen anyways, I think that training solely for self-defence, without mat testing what you do (cause it's not the way a "real" fight is) is a rather unhealthy way to train. Not wing chun, not kata, not tai chi, not any specific training, but the attitude it is pursued with.

Train to have fun, train to stay fit, train for your health. Take comfort in knowing that as a side effect you are a good fighter and can probably defend yourself. But don't train solely for the purpose of defending yourself from "evildoers", that is paranoia. Same as wrapping your head in tinfoil "just in case" aliens are trying to read your mind.

Of course this all changes if your job requires you to use physical force. A cop, for example, might train for those reasons as part of there job. But I would also imagine they would want to test this stuff out fully before trying it "for real". Same as they'd want to test out a fire arm in a range before using it "for real". Just cause someone else says, "Yeah, this gun works great" wouldn't do it for me.

which is why full contact sparring is so important in any MA.

 

[dmax999]

Mr. Green,

Your web analogies aside... There are a couple flaws with some of your arguments, though I must admit you are far more reasonable then most MMA people I have seen.

UFC has rules, I don't know their specific rules, but I bet they outlaw half of WCs truly devistating techniques (reason they are outlawed is to prevent serious injury). I'm not complaining about the rules, but you have to realize that rules designed to limit one art's strengths are going to severly limit its effectivness. I really wouldn't want to be in a tournament allowing the moves outlawed.

After taking WC for a few years I switched to a Shaolin Kung-Fu school, I was more interested in Tai Chi. Went to sparring class and guess what? Every single WC move I had was not allowed. Not a single one. Guess what else? I did horrible. Without the rules I was given I have no doubt I would have dominated, but insurance rules were what beat me, not a lack in skill or the style.

Taking your side for a minute. I have seen countless videos of WC guys in a MMA type fight just do horrible. Reason is they were not used to sparring and froze up. Most had probably never even seen an MMA fight before they entered it.

WC is actually one of the more effective MAs out there, but it does require a lot of training because the movements are different. It also requires a lot of sparring to gain confidence that its strange moves will actually work.
Its nice to see an MMA guy with some common sense at least!

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't think most of the UFC's rules are a big problem, and the ones that are often still get trained in clubs anyways. Even things like eye gouges can be trained in sparring if you wear eye protection.

That said, I personally don't see the benefits of using such techniques. I can't use them in class without hurting my partners, If I where to compete and use them I'd get DQed and if I where to use them in a "real" situation, I'd probably have a court fight to follow...

And truthfully, I think it is easier to fight without them, If I can set up a "dirty tactic", I can set up a "clean" one, probably easier cause it is better trained and there are more of them.

But, just out of curiosity, what Wing Chun tactics where you not allowed to use?

 

[dmax999]

I was not allowed to kick below the waist, this eliminates EVERY kick I learned in WC (We never kicked above the waist). I was not flexiable enough to get off high kicks without effort or with speed so it took my feet out of the equasion.

I was not allowed to trap, this is where I was getting exceeding good at this in WC.

No straight puches to the head, there goes chain punching.

No eye gouges, there goes bil-je (Probably for the best for safety reasons)

Got yelled at when I faced opponents square on as in WC, we had a turned stance with one hand farther back. Wasn't even supposed to use my WC stance, which makes all the defense in WC not work.

Not disagreeing with our sparring rules, just making a point about a decent fighter suddenly made worthless from rules. Same thing would happen to an MMA in a professional boxing match. A couple years into my new system, if I had been attacked on the street I would have used WC over the new stuff, I had more confidence that WC would work in any situation.

Here is the rub: I switched to another school in the same newer system (Old teacher left town in the middle of the night) and now I do Xing-I. What is Xing-I you may ask, its WC done a little bit differently. Can't wait until we spar with that, I will be back to my old ways then!

 

[Andrew Green]

Well.... those rules are rather silly if you are looking for skills that carry over into anything but those rules....

 

[ed-swckf]

Well.... those rules are rather silly if you are looking for skills that carry over into anything but those rules....

Yes they are silly, but its not an isolated case, we have a MMA competition locally that has grown in strength over the past few years and their rules also eliminate some of the elements mentioned in dmax999's post. Wing chun trains you as the underdog so its understandable that you learn a lot of techniques to defeat a larger aggressor and i definitely don't think the way i would fight would be considered a fair fight by most MMA fight co-ordinators. They obviously want to put on a fair fight but that right there is a very nonrealistic concept, what in truth is a fair fight. I watch a lot of UFC and there are some horendous mismatches but that makes for the entertainment i guess, i love to watch that stuff.

 

[Andrew Green]

Wing chun trains you as the underdog

Why would you train for years to always be the underdog? As it is supposed to be for self-defence I will assume it is also largely for fighting untrained people. So after several years of training, you still are being trained as the underdog against someone with no training?

Something doesn't seem right there...

 

[dmax999]

I think he meant that you train as though you would be the underdog in a fight. Its techniques are designed to work against people that have 20 or more pounds over you and more height and reach.
It is definatly not designed for only taking on untrained people. Quite the opposite, I believe WC is one of the few MAs designed to take on other skilled fighters. It doen't require strength or size to win, thus allowing you to appear as an underdog and have full confidence that you will still be able to handle yourself in a fight.

 

[ed-swckf]

Why would you train for years to always be the underdog? As it is supposed to be for self-defence I will assume it is also largely for fighting untrained people. So after several years of training, you still are being trained as the underdog against someone with no training?

Something doesn't seem right there...

Well what doesn't seem right is your interpretation. If a 6'6" wide as a brick wall guy is attacking me, a 5'7" man with slight build immediatly we are the underdog. You train as the underdog or for the worst case scenario, to train to only come into contact with non skilled opponents is completly foolish and would breed complacency. I have no idea what training the opponent has so if i train for worst case then i'm in less danger of finding myself in the ****. And that worst case includes not knowing if they carry something sharp and shiny, self defense is obviously a concept that doesn't seem to get much cover if you already know your opponents backround before you fight ala MMA.

When you are in a situation with more than one opponent you again are immediately the underdog and if you never trained that situation to a high level then the training isn't going to carry much weight. Basically in a typical street self defense situation you will constantly find yourself as an underdog, you train so you can overcome the unfair odds and you train for the fighter to have some skill and its often the case. It may not be a skill like a trained martial art but there is still a skill element to being a scrapper, it has a lot less depth and dimension but its also unpredictable and dangerous to ignore.

If i am training as an underdog and contiually putting myself in challenging environment of training the bar will continually be getting raised. It stops you underestimating your opponents ability to harm you, what works on a particular untrained attacker may be countered by another so you train for all eventualitys and you train for an unfair fight. The cowardly nature of a mugger will gravitate them towards a weaker opponent, weather that be in size, in numbers or in the fact they carry a weapon and you don't. Thats why you are the underdog and not sitting on a cloud of false confidence, in return we train to fight an unfair fight, one which will destroy their battle plan, keep us one step ahead and hopefully keep us safe. We fight our fight, not theirs, if that still seems wrong to you then i really care not.

 

[ed-swckf]

I think he meant that you train as though you would be the underdog in a fight. Its techniques are designed to work against people that have 20 or more pounds over you and more height and reach.
It is definatly not designed for only taking on untrained people. Quite the opposite, I believe WC is one of the few MAs designed to take on other skilled fighters. It doen't require strength or size to win, thus allowing you to appear as an underdog and have full confidence that you will still be able to handle yourself in a fight.

Yeah thats the jist of it, i thought it was quite renowned fact of wing chun, perhaps i just wasn't clear.