non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

[JowGaWolf]

i don't think of it as a kick and didn't consider it a "real kick" until I tried it myself. It is more like a push with the heel and your body behind. So I'd say the force is weak, but energy is high. It I think also easier to jam however.

You may not be doing it correctly as a kick. Sort of like the front kick. A lot of people say the front kick is used to push or to create difference. However when I do the front kick, I'm thinking "break ribs" and not "push". My front kicks don't push. The best description I've heard for the type of front kick that I do is, "Like trying to kick a door in." I think if you approach this kick in a similar manner then it will no longer feel like you are pushing.

I also don't think it's easier to jam because of how the kick is set up and because it travels under the field of vision. Anything that travels outside of the field of vision is rarely stopped.

The other thing to understand is that this is a close range kick, meaning that it's a kick that is done within your opponent's punching range. He's not jamming it. no one expects to get kicked from that range especially if you are defending against punches before the kick.

 

[Fungus]

You may not be doing it correctly as a kick. Sort of like the front kick. A lot of people say the front kick is used to push or to create difference. However when I do the front kick, I'm thinking "break ribs" and not "push". My front kicks don't push. The best description I've heard for the type of front kick that I do is, "Like trying to kick a door in." I think if you approach this kick in a similar manner then it will no longer feel like you are pushing.

I understand what you say and I agree! The front kick can be done in both ways, depending on purpose and distance. The rib breaking version we avoid in friendly sparring, but only practice that one myself on the sack or mitts.

The problem is that to break a rib, you need to that last extension to get ultimate power? (whay old okinawan karate calls "chinkuchi" which is not the same as "kime").

This is what I TRY to do with the turning back kick, BUT it doesn't work at close range; a full extension kick is not possible at short range, thereof the weird hybrid I think. What is wrong and right I don't know, I am starting to think they are all right but have different purposes. I focused only on the "breaking rib" kicks, and ignored the hybrid ones, but slowly see how they are useful. I guess this tells more about my own early learning process.

I also don't think it's easier to jam because of how the kick is set up and because it travels under the field of vision. Anything that travels outside of the field of vision is rarely stopped.

Yes I agre on the field of vision part, but what I had in mind is how I myself stopped this kick (when others to it to me). I raise my knee like you do when blocking a body kick. If you do this early, the only energy of the turning foot comes from rotation, there is not time to extent even a bit before you block it. So you can block it without any pain, and a bonus is that your opponent may loose balance if you move forward.

The true back kick, comes from below and is harder to block this way in my limted experience. But that version is harder to do close range - unless you don't mind kicking the groin! In self selfence it would be awesome but not in sparring.

The other thing to understand is that this is a close range kick, meaning that it's a kick that is done within your opponent's punching range. He's not jamming it. no one expects to get kicked from that range especially if you are defending against punches before the kick.

Yes this is true.

I feel I learn alot about this the last 1-2 weeks. The other day I practice this on mits and sack, and I realise that it takes significatly less acrobatic skills to make the jumping back kick using this "close range" version. As if you jump, spine and want to extend for full power version, you loose height I end up kicking knee height only; again not for sparring.

I am 210+ pounds and back issues but found it doable to do the jumping back kick (close range hybrid 180 degree version) and at least get to liver height. I was surprised to realise that once I got my head right, it was not overly difficult.

Previously I have been tyring the 360 version of spinning jumping back kick (tobi ushiro geri) (full power, extension) and that is very diffult for me to do aboev knee height! I now realize that many of the higher ranked don't even do that, they do the close range 180degress version. Which is also significantly faster.

So this was a good learning week for me!! thanks everyone for helping out with my questions!

 

[Fungus]

I noticed the tobi ushiro geri (jumping back kick) at least in the kyokushin curriculum a 2 DAN black belt technique, but we are encourage to start training as it's to be difficult to master as opposed to just pulling it off to some lesser extent (which is where I am struggling). I am happy to be able to do a 180 jump, get to liver lever and get a decent energy into the kick. But others can do it much faster and with precision, and higher.

 

[HighKick]

I have been thinking more about this, and now I get the purpose of what one may call the turning/spinning side kick, it is easier at close range, if you want to kick the liver, rathre than a back kick to the groin. You chamber before you turn, vs after you turn. I find it is also easier to perform, but one does not extent the kick properly, so i don't think of it as a kick and didn't consider it a "real kick" until I tried it myself. It is more like a push with the heel and your body behind. So I'd say the force is weak, but energy is high. It I think also easier to jam however.

I feel like I realized something that has before my eyes all the time but I tried to explain it away. I'm excited about this I intent to practice this. I'd say the main advantage of this version i didn't take seriously first, is that I think it .superior in close range. Ie. basically to throw it from a clinch without the need for extension. But this is not a pure linear kick, it seems to be a hybrid. But it's the utility of this hybrid that i didn't understand until yesterday. 😍

One of my favorite setups was to work several (mainly lead leg) body punches and a few lazy kicks late in matches. Since people often think their opponent should be getting tired, this usually drops or at least changes their guard and stance. After a few iterations of this, I would take a full step, landing with my lead leg right beside and outside of their lead leg. Then I would spinning-side kick to the mid-section.
No, the kick rarely ever fully extended but the rotational force was very powerful. I have one recorded TKO with this kick.

 

[marvin8]

My question was more specific, perhaps it's best illustrated by focusing only on ushiro geri, or the turning/spinning back kick.

(The application is typically to kick your heel, into the solar plexus of the opponent, or if the right rib side for liver impact depending on your angle.)

I am not talking about ushiro mawashi geri (spinnin hook kick or wheel kick)

the question is: how to make the TURN/SPIN while maintaining balance and not loose power or make it a ushiro mawashi hybrid. The trouble I have is that in a more square stance my center of mass is to the right of the pivoting kick, and if you move your center of mass sideways I think I have to loose energy?...

Version two, meaning twisting your lead leg, but not MOVING it, supposedly we are taught the better (less telegraphing) but more advanced version. And we are told by instructors this is advanced to execute properly. Sometimes when people do this wither power, they often solve it by a less squared stance, so that the small twist of the leg is sufficient (this works reasonably) But some people do it with a more square stance, and even it can be done, I find that power is lost as your center of gravity necessarily must move during the kick, and howto do that without getting a angular momentum is a bit of a mystery to me.

My instructor told me that the various version may be used depending on circumstances, and this is clear to me. But the question is if the "advanced" version can ever be as powerful? I just want to understand if my hunch is correct, or this impression is all due to my bad technique.

You shouldn't rely on speed, rather let your technical ability stand alone. Non-telegraph can be overrated. Usually, you want your opponent reacting, moving and out of position. You normally would not be the initial aggressor by spin back kicking someone that is just standing there.

Shuffle step to spinning back kick, Belingon vs Leone.

https://imgur.com/oyxmw6f

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

https://imgur.com/oyxmw6f

Thanks for sharing these videos.

I have always wondered, no matter what MA style that you may train, is there any good reason that you don't train "spinning back kick"? If you are good in this technique, you may be able to knock down anybody who runs toward you and tries to knock your head off. It's an excellent combat tool.

A: Do you train "spinning back kick" in your system?
B: We don't train this technique in my system because ....

What can be B's reason?

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem is that to break a rib, you need to that last extension to get ultimate power?

Not really. Ribs are strong in one direction and weak in another. They are strong against direct force impact when it comes from the front and travel towards the spine. The ribs are weak againd diagonal force the travels upward towards the head or downward towards the groin. This means it takes less force to break it.

 

[Fungus]

Not really. Ribs are strong in one direction and weak in another. They are strong against direct force impact when it comes from the front and travel towards the spine. The ribs are weak againd diagonal force the travels upward towards the head or downward towards the groin. This means it takes less force to break it.

Never thought much about that but that makes sense. So an upward kick to the lower rib with would be good stuff? That's the direction that the turning back kick might take.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Never thought much about that but that makes sense. So an upward kick to the lower rib with would be good stuff? That's the direction that the turning back kick might take.

Correct. I would be curious to look at fight videos to see if more ribs were broken via an upward motion or a horizontal on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Never thought much about that but that makes sense. So an upward kick to the lower rib with would be good stuff? That's the direction that the turning back kick might take.

Probably the best example as this force less than a kick or punch

 

[HighKick]

Not really. Ribs are strong in one direction and weak in another. They are strong against direct force impact when it comes from the front and travel towards the spine. The ribs are weak againd diagonal force the travels upward towards the head or downward towards the groin. This means it takes less force to break it.

Years ago, I had a rib fully broken in a tournament while wearing a hogu. The kick landed mainly on my sternum but was traveling at an angle relative to my body (spinning kick) and snapped the 4th rib.
Hurt just a bit.

 

[marvin8]

My question was more specific, perhaps it's best illustrated by focusing only on ushiro geri, or the turning/spinning back kick.

(The application is typically to kick your heel, into the solar plexus of the opponent, or if the right rib side for liver impact depending on your angle.)

I am not talking about ushiro mawashi geri (spinnin hook kick or wheel kick)

the question is: how to make the TURN/SPIN while maintaining balance and not loose power or make it a ushiro mawashi hybrid. The trouble I have is that in a more square stance my center of mass is to the right of the pivoting kick, and if you move your center of mass sideways I think I have to loose energy?

Version one (which i call beginner version) and we are taught at our club this is NOT the way to do, because it's telegraphing. But the power is high.

Another video of same method

This video also lables this a "mistake" (although you can do it for a good reason, but that's a different question, not the one I ask)

No. Your 3rd video at 4:00, also shows the correct way is to step forward and line up the lead foot with the opponent's lead foot. Your 2nd video shows this more clearly while kicking the shield holder.

Version two, meaning twisting your lead leg, but not MOVING it, supposedly we are taught the better (less telegraphing) but more advanced version. And we are told by instructors this is advanced to execute properly. Sometimes when people do this wither power, they often solve it by a less squared stance, so that the small twist of the leg is sufficient (this works reasonably) But some people do it with a more square stance, and even it can be done, I find that power is lost as your center of gravity necessarily must move during the kick, and howto do that without getting a angular momentum is a bit of a mystery to me.

If you don't move your lead foot (e.g., from squared stance, orthodox in closed stance) to align with your opponent's lead foot, your back kick will miss the target to your opponent's right.

But in this video, they use a typical narrow a bit bladed sance, typical for point-karate. In that case, it looks like an ideal situation even to me. I have no problem with that video. It will be good power!

In our style we often are closer and have a more squared stance. Bladed stance are vulnerable to leg kicks and sweeps and is more in/out focused.

Yes, bladed stance has disadvantages and can limit movement.

In our last class we were instructed to a adopt a little more squared fighting stance, where the back leg is clearly much to the side and not as narrows as that video. Then we were asked to first turn, lifting the back leg into the air, chamber it in a new position where you have light of sight with the target (so the back foot has to MOVE quote a bit). The front foot are not allowed to side step, just turn angle. Then do the back kick, and then after the kick (in kihon) land the kicking leg back in the original position.

It seems like your describing you pivot more on one leg.

In Belingon vs Leone (closed stance) and Andrey Koreshkov vs Chance Rencountre (open stance), they both step while hiding it with movement, position themselves and land the back kick.

https://imgur.com/skaH4Ac

 

[Fungus]

No. Your 3rd video at 4:00, also shows the correct way is to step forward and line up the lead foot with the opponent's lead foot. Your 2nd video shows this more clearly while kicking the shield holder.

Sorry I didn't find a video to illustrate the original question at first

Butut in this TKD video, they at least mention what I refer to. You can do the kick without first going into a almost bladed stance, but it's more difficult and in the video he says it's only for experienced people, not for beginners, and it was this more difficult version our instructors was trying to teach us, and which I had trouble with.

If you don't move your lead foot (e.g., from squared stance, orthodox in closed stance) to align with your opponent's lead foot, your back kick will miss the target to your opponent's right.

Yes. Or you have to "spin" initially say 35 extra degrees or so, before doing tthe "straight kick" which gives you some spin momentun,, which is what was confusing diffcult part. BUT, as I realize the last week, at least at closer range and kicking without extending the leg, and chambering it differently it makes more sense ot me. I will try to practice this more. I was a bit obsessed that it "had to be a straight kick" but I think still it's a hybrid version.

Yes, bladed stance has disadvantages and can limit movement.

It seems like your describing you pivot more on one leg.

Yes, we essentially pivot on the lead leg, perform the kick and return to original position (which is not bladed, but the semi-squared stance).

In Belingon vs Leone (closed stance) and Andrey Koreshkov vs Chance Rencountre (open stance), they both step while hiding it with movement, position themselves and land the back kick.

They way they do it in that video is how I would tend to do it as well, but this is not the difficult version, it's the easier version as they start from almsot bladed stance, the movement of lead foot is subtle. the kick in this video has no compromise for power as I feared in the original post.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Years ago, I had a rib fully broken in a tournament while wearing a hogu. The kick landed mainly on my sternum but was traveling at an angle relative to my body (spinning kick) and snapped the 4th rib.
Hurt just a bit.

I did some experiments with strikes that go at an angle and just what I personally felt when doing these. I've concluded that our bodies don't like things that come in at an angle. Biologically we aren't designed to withstand impacts at an angle. I wouldn't recommend doing the same unless someone wants to really understand the reality of it, and then spend the next 6 months recovering from the damage caused by playing around with it.

 

[HighKick]

I did some experiments with strikes that go at an angle and just what I personally felt when doing these. I've concluded that our bodies don't like things that come in at an angle. Biologically we aren't designed to withstand impacts at an angle. I wouldn't recommend doing the same unless someone wants to really understand the reality of it, and then spend the next 6 months recovering from the damage caused by playing around with it.

Soft tissue issues are a bear.

 

[HighKick]

No. Your 3rd video at 4:00, also shows the correct way is to step forward and line up the lead foot with the opponent's lead foot. Your 2nd video shows this more clearly while kicking the shield holder.


If you don't move your lead foot (e.g., from squared stance, orthodox in closed stance) to align with your opponent's lead foot, your back kick will miss the target to your opponent's right.


Yes, bladed stance has disadvantages and can limit movement.


It seems like your describing you pivot more on one leg.

In Belingon vs Leone (closed stance) and Andrey Koreshkov vs Chance Rencountre (open stance), they both step while hiding it with movement, position themselves and land the back kick.

https://imgur.com/skaH4Ac

This video is very close to what I described in my post, sans the initial step.

 

[marvin8]

Sorry I didn't find a video to illustrate the original question at first

Butut in this TKD video, they at least mention what I refer to. You can do the kick without first going into a almost bladed stance, but it's more difficult and in the video he says it's only for experienced people, not for beginners, and it was this more difficult version our instructors was trying to teach us, and which I had trouble with.

Jumping in the air may be advanced. However, it may be telegraphic and less powerful. Belingon's shuffle step is done from a semi-squared stance, creates momentum, makes two steps into one, uses the ground for more power and is a skill that needs to be learned and developed.

Yes. Or you have to "spin" initially say 35 extra degrees or so, before doing tthe "straight kick" which gives you some spin momentun,, which is what was confusing diffcult part. BUT, as I realize the last week, at least at closer range and kicking without extending the leg, and chambering it differently it makes more sense ot me. I will try to practice this more. I was a bit obsessed that it "had to be a straight kick" but I think still it's a hybrid version.

Yes, we essentially pivot on the lead leg, perform the kick and return to original position (which is not bladed, but the semi-squared stance).

In your posted Kyokushin video, Sari starts from off the tracks. His lead foot is between the opponent's legs with his rear foot outside of the opponent's lead foot. Sari pivots his front foot 135° starting on his heel, then toes, aligning his lead foot with the opponent's lead foot then back kicks.

https://imgur.com/NEZODUM

This video is very close to what I described in my post, sans the initial step

The mechanics of the spinning back kick are similar. The step and positioning differs depending on what position the opponent is in, if you are countering or feinting or the distance.

"So, the next step then from there is to lose the front foot across..."

 

[Fungus]

Ineed many other instructions do it the less difficult way.

I think the original instructor asked us to do the most tricky version maybe to challenge us way beyond our rank?
But I admit that practicing to at least TRYING to do the balancing act, did improve my technique a bit.

 

[HighKick]

Ineed many other instructions do it the less difficult way.

I think the original instructor asked us to do the most tricky version maybe to challenge us way beyond our rank?
But I admit that practicing to at least TRYING to do the balancing act, did improve my technique a bit.

I really like the last video. I do think there are always semantics at play when talking about spinning side or back kicks. He calls his back kicks, but most would not because of how he lands and a little bit of body posture.
But is a very, very effective way to throw the kick. I would say the best way in a sparring environment. For me, the mechanics are the same whether you setup with or without a step.

FWIW, I would not always start the kick in such a closed, inline stance because I did not want to give my next move away. I would mix it up to keep them guessing. Doing the same kick from an open stance is harder and, if done wrong, is a good bit slower, so you have to be more selective with when you use it.

 

[marvin8]

Ineed many other instructions do it the less difficult way.

I think the original instructor asked us to do the most tricky version maybe to challenge us way beyond our rank?
But I admit that practicing to at least TRYING to do the balancing act, did improve my technique a bit.

The way you are being taught in Kyokushin may be the best for that style approach or restrictive competition rules. Kyokushin training has advantages (e.g., prevent CTE, speed, etc.) but may also have disadvantages.

Some other poster, "There are a few others things that are very valuable in a street fight that kyokushin (at least in most dojos) does not teach you: One point kyokushin is often criticized for is the lack of punches to the head. They are part of the curriculum, but since they are not allowed in competitions, you don’t train them much. And while you don’t necessarily need them as an offensive tool (punching to the head bare knuckled is a terrible idea anyway), you sure as hell need to be able to defend against them in a street fight.

Another major thing that is missing is take-downs and ground game. Again, even if you don’t want to take the fight to the ground yourself, your opponent might want to and you better at least know how to defend that and how to get back up."