Ninjukai Taijutsu

[KogaTengu]

Ok, by your signature you seem to be studying Ronald Duncan's system. I'm a bit hazy on my knowledge about him, I have to admit, but if I remember correctly, he claims to be a Koga ryu ninjutsu adept. Where did he learn Koga ryu ninjutsu? Who taught him? And who taught his teacher? etc. I think you get the picture... Oh and do remember, there are people who know the history of ninjutsu quite well indeed (I'm not one of them)

I'm a little hazy myself, as I am not a direct student. I can also remember a time when the Koga term was used in magazines but I never hear of it in my classes. We don't wear tabi or ninja garb, and for the most part practice a striking/pinning/throwing art. From the website, he seems to be attributed to "American Ninjutsu" so perhaps it is his own thing.

I do know that he has an extensive background in many arts, spanning 40 + years, and so has merged them together into his own system, and he is very open about that, so in my book, he is not a fraud.

 

[Kreth]

None of the individuals listed have posted on this thread. My point is that it was an outright attack on people who do not frequent this board.

Someone claimed that there were only 3 frauds in ninjutsu. I pointed out more.

Do you call the Kempo people frauds for not having a link back to China?

I don't study Kempo. If I did, and people made false claims about their training in the system, then yes I would call them on it.

To me, this smacks of an "I'm better than you are" attitude based on paperwork, which if I am not mistaken, has been a bit of a thorn for the Bujinkan as well.

No, it smacks of "the people I listed have been caught out making false claims." Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, eh?

 

[Mr. E]

I do know that he has an extensive background in many arts, spanning 40 + years, and so has merged them together into his own system, and he is very open about that, so in my book, he is not a fraud.

So why did he come out with a video on Koga ryu ninjutsu?

Go ahead a do a Google search, you'll find references to it.

Koga ryu was a style that existed. He came out with a video that claimed to present it. To be honest, he would have had to have learned Koga ryu from someone who knew it.

So, who was it?

It does not matter that he has tried to drop the use of the term Koga ryu ninjutsu. That only means that he was catching too much flak. It is clear that he knowingly lied about being taught something to attract students. He can't show proof of being taught something he claimed to be competent to teach- so he is a fraud. As TimoS pointed out, when you try to bring up the matter of Mr Hatsumi you know he is honest in what he was shown and who taught him.

The same goes for John Ang. If he showed proof that he really was taught a ninja art as he claims people would not say he is a fraud. They may find that he was lied to by someone else or that there was a mistake and he only thought he had learned a ninja art- but he himself would not be the one who was lying to attract students.

So since both John Ang and Ron Duncan are still alive and can be questioned, the way to stop people from calling them frauds is to go to them and convince them to prove their claims about being taught. You can't convince reasonable people without that happening. Insults and pleas won;t do it. If you really care about what people say, you need to convince your teachers to do the right thing.

 

[KogaTengu]

To help answer some questions I received privately:

Why do people that follow frauds like you always try to turn the conversation around to attack the Bujinkan. As has been pointed out, the Bujinkan soke can show proof he was taught, canyour teacher? If not, leave it alone.

Because people in glass houses should not throw stones.

If Hatsumi can only prove one generation of teachers before him, then his art is a revived one at best.

Now, either you prove without a doubt the full lineage of Togakure ryu, or leave it alone as well. I'm sure all I will get is "Well, we have no reason to believe that Takamatsu lied..."

 

[TimoS]

Now, either you prove without a doubt the full lineage of Togakure ryu, or leave it alone as well. I'm sure all I will get is "Well, we have no reason to believe that Takamatsu lied..."

You do realize that Togakure ryu is not the full curriculum of Bujinkan? Also, I believe this kind of argumentation is a fallacy called Tu quoque (one of my friends likes to throw those around, so I've picked something up myself also)

 

[Bigshadow]

If Hatsumi can only prove one generation of teachers before him, then his art is a revived one at best.

OK, we can start there. So.... Who taught Ron?

 

[KogaTengu]

You do realize that Togakure ryu is not the full curriculum of Bujinkan? Also, I believe this kind of argumentation is a fallacy called Tu quoque (one of my friends likes to throw those around, so I've picked something up myself also)

Yes, just as Ninjutsu is not the full curriculum in the Way of the Winds system. As I pointed out earlier, Duncan Sensei has studied many arts that are compiled into what I learn.

As for my the argumentation type, I'll defer to your expert.

As for yours, I call it avoidance. But I will clarify my point, that it is not the entirety of Hatsumi's art that is in question. Only the Togakure ryu at this point. I think Kumogakure and a few others follow suit however.

So I will reiterate the point that the continuous transmission of these arts is in question, just as you are questioning the same aspect of the art I train in.

I will admit to my ignorance of the matter of Duncan Sensei's teachers. I know who some of them were, but do not have first hand knowledge of all of them.

My only reason for involvement in this thread is because a Moderator here called him a fraud, without proof, only based on his lack to go and interview Duncan Sensei himself. Meanwhile, he belongs to an organization which has also failed to provide documentation while under the same scrutiny.

 

[Kreth]

My only reason for involvement in this thread is because a Moderator here called him a fraud, without proof, only based on his lack to go and interview Duncan Sensei himself. Meanwhile, he belongs to an organization which has also failed to provide documentation while under the same scrutiny.

I called him a fraud because he has no link to Japan, but claims to teach ninjutsu. You're really not going to play the "You-can't-prove-he-never-had-any-training" card, are you?

 

[KogaTengu]

I called him a fraud because he has no link to Japan, but claims to teach ninjutsu. You're really not going to play the "You-can't-prove-he-never-had-any-training" card, are you?

Well, yes I did play it. I have seen records of direct communication between Duncan Sensei and a prominent Japanese martial artist from which part of his lineage is from. This was not a link to Ninjutsu, but a link to Japan none the less.

On that note, he has trained in Judo and was a member of the Marine Corp. Judo team. Does Judo go back to Japan?

Again, I cannot personally atest to all of his training background, so please don't ask me to prove anything I cannot while you avoid my, and a large part of the Budo community's, concerns about your own links to an established unbroken lineage ryu-ha.

 

[Kreth]

Well, yes I did play it. I have seen records of direct communication between Duncan Sensei and a prominent Japanese martial artist from which part of his lineage is from. This was not a link to Ninjutsu, but a link to Japan none the less.

You can read Japanese and confirm that they were not, say, the menu from an izakaya?

On that note, he has trained in Judo and was a member of the Marine Corp. Judo team. Does Judo go back to Japan?

Does Judo have anything to do with ninjutsu lineage?

Again, I cannot personally atest to all of his training background, so please don't ask me to prove anything I cannot while you avoid my, and a large part of the Budo community's, concerns about your own links to an established unbroken lineage ryu-ha.

How about I take a page from your playbook? You can get a mailing address for Hatsumi sensei at bujinkan.com. Write him a letter and express your concerns.

 

[TimoS]

As for yours, I call it avoidance

Call it what you want, but as I study karate, not Bujinkan or any related arts, I would hardly call it avoidance. As for why then am I here arguing with you, well, I basically just stumbled upon this thread

 

[KogaTengu]

You can read Japanese and confirm that they were not, say, the menu from an izakaya?


Does Judo have anything to do with ninjutsu lineage?


How about I take a page from your playbook? You can get a mailing address for Hatsumi sensei at bujinkan.com. Write him a letter and express your concerns.

1. It was in english.
2. No.
3. My playbook doesn't involve proactive character assassination, like many in the Bujinkan. Your teacher's qualifications do not concern me other than when his members hypocritically attack a person I have met and respect.

I am going to have to assume that it is not proper policy for you to discuss that your own Ninjutsu lineage cannot be traced beyond Takamatsu, but you will continue to berate someone on the same charges. This speaks volumes.

 

[Kreth]

I am going to have to assume that it is not proper policy for you to discuss that your own Ninjutsu lineage cannot be traced beyond Takamatsu, but you will continue to berate someone on the same charges. This speaks volumes.

So by extension, Duncan can prove a link to his ninjutsu teacher in Japan? Then we'd be on "even" ground.
Even if I give you your claim regarding lineage beyond Takamatsu, then it's one more generation than Duncan (or Ang, to keep this somewhat on topic) can prove.

 

[KogaTengu]

So by extension, Duncan can prove a link to his ninjutsu teacher in Japan? Then we'd be on "even" ground.
Even if I give you your claim regarding lineage beyond Takamatsu, then it's one more generation than Duncan (or Ang, to keep this somewhat on topic) can prove.

Well, as I see it Duncan is on par with Takamatsu in that neither of them have shown who their Ninjutsu teacher was. (We have a name of "Toda" for Takamatsu but his location is kind of elusive). Therefor, neither have shown a "link to Japan" other than some books Takamatsu passed on.

Again, you ask for something I cannot show. As soon as I learn of deeper lineage about where Duncan Sensei's Ninjutsu came from, I will post it, with permission of course. It may be easier and more direct for you to ask him yourself.

 

[Kreth]

Well, as I see it Duncan is on par with Takamatsu in that neither of them have shown who their Ninjutsu teacher was. (We have a name of "Toda" for Takamatsu but his location is kind of elusive). Therefor, neither have shown a "link to Japan" other than some books Takamatsu passed on.

Hrm, Japanese soke of a Japanese system equal to an American who suddenly became a "ninjitsu" instructor once Hayes started making a name for himself? I don't think so.

Again, you ask for something I cannot show. As soon as I learn of deeper lineage about where Duncan Sensei's Ninjutsu came from, I will post it, with permission of course. It may be easier and more direct for you to ask him yourself.

I'm not holding my breath. There's been no evidence shown in the 15 years I've been training.

 

[KogaTengu]

Hrm, Japanese soke of a Japanese system equal to an American who suddenly became a "ninjitsu" instructor once Hayes started making a name for himself? I don't think so.


I'm not holding my breath. There's been no evidence shown in the 15 years I've been training.

Haha..."Soke". Did he appoint that to himself or did his "grandfather" appointhim when he was 5 years old?

Oh - in those 15 years, how many times did you try to ask him in person? I also have seen evidence that he was calling what he was doing Ninjutsu long before Hayes ever met your "Soke to the 9th power."

I'm done.

 

[Kreth]

Haha..."Soke". Did he appoint that to himself or did his "grandfather" appointhim when he was 5 years old?

And who appointed Duncan "father of American ninjitsu" [sic]?

Oh - in those 15 years, how many times did you try to ask him in person? I also have seen evidence that he was calling what he was doing Ninjutsu long before Hayes ever met your "Soke to the 9th power."

Why would I ask him when I saw his claims debunked by people who had been training long before me? The very fact that he uses the "ninjitsu" spelling is a big clue, btw.

I'm done.

You were done when you started.

 

[TimoS]

I also have seen evidence that he was calling what he was doing Ninjutsu long before Hayes ever met your "Soke to the 9th power."

I've heard this claim before. Has anyone (neutral) seen this evidence?

 

[Mr. E]

Well, as I see it Duncan is on par with Takamatsu in that neither of them have shown who their Ninjutsu teacher was.

Well. Takamatsu was never asked AFAIK to show proof. Ron Duncan has, and can't.

For that matter, how do you know that Takamatsu never showed who his teacher was? Have you talked or inquired about it? You could ask Mr Hatsumi about the matter if you really cared. Some of the people here would like to ask Ron Duncan about the matter of his teacher- and have asked him through e-mail and such. They get only silence. The obvious answer for why is that Mr Duncan knowingly lies about the matter.

That makes him a fraud. Not someone who is passing along a mistaken story- a fraud. Unless you want to convince him to come clean you are just going to have to live with that.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, as I see it Duncan is on par with Takamatsu in that neither of them have shown who their Ninjutsu teacher was. (We have a name of "Toda" for Takamatsu but his location is kind of elusive). Therefor, neither have shown a "link to Japan" other than some books Takamatsu passed on.

Again, you ask for something I cannot show. As soon as I learn of deeper lineage about where Duncan Sensei's Ninjutsu came from, I will post it, with permission of course. It may be easier and more direct for you to ask him yourself.

Hmmm,

One comes int o try to make a point, and then cannot back it up with references or even hearsay?

I say point goes to the other side.

As to taking it private orasking someone else off-line, I know this arguement tactic, it makes it seem like the arguement is over and that there is some no matter how small one might believe validity in the counter point. When in actuality there is no validity in the point or comment of going private or asking directly as others have already and presented the information.

I say point goes to the other side.

Just on this little exchange alone, and not being into the complete scene, I would have to say you have proven nothing, other than being a loyal follower.

I know this might be a little hard to swallow. So would you like some Kool-aid to take wih this bitter pill?