Ninjukai Taijutsu

[Genin Andrew]

Haha Enson i know Jeff, not very well but he was one of my main instructors when i was starting out, good guy.

I agree with what he says, what question did you want elaboration on? When broken down into different parts it would be easy to see that Ninjukai is definately a mixture of many arts, because it is, it incorporates almost everything, thats what makes it great. But its not Ninjutsu but it is considered a Ninja art by those in the organization,many don't agree due to the lack of proof the Organization can provide,that is fine.

Heretic you are right, this should have been posted in the "modern" section,and this is a very old thread from earlier in the year, i'm sure Don is enjoying going back over this thread .

-andrew

 

[Kizaru]

Haha Enson i know Jeff, Heretic you are right, this should have been posted in the "modern" section,

Why don't we clear up the confusion and create a section for "Authentic" and "Fantasy Ninja"? We could put the X-kans and Toshindo in "Authentic" and Ninjukai, Dux ryu etc in the "Fantasy Ninja" section. I think it would be easy to make the distinction from there.

 

[Don Roley]

But its not Ninjutsu but it is considered a Ninja art by those in the organization

Sounds like somebody is trying to associate with ninjutsu and attract students that way, while giving them an excuse for when people start to question them.

 

[Enson]

Haha Enson i know Jeff, not very well but he was one of my main instructors when i was starting out, good guy.
-andrew

well apparently "jeff" was only a yellow belt or something like that when he posted this. so i'm guessing that his knowledge of the system was meager (sp?) at best. andrew does have a higher belt rank so he might have a little deeper understanding of his art.
the reason why i didn't post this in modern was because i remembered that it was posted already.
from what i've seen ninjukai has alot of ninjutsu flavor in it. i think it represents a honest art form and andrew seems to enjoy it thoroughly. i wouldn't say fantasy. the camo gis are a little much but thats just my preference.

peace

 

[heretic888]

Sounds like somebody is trying to associate with ninjutsu and attract students that way, while giving them an excuse for when people start to question them.

I'm inclined to agree with Don here.

I would be very interested, since they do not claim to be a "ninjutsu" school, as to what their criteria for a "ninja" school are. As well as the particulars of how they supposedly meet these criteria.

Just askin'.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Enson,

Jeff is now a red belt, i met him when he was a blue belt, he would have been a yellow belt 5-6 years ago.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Heretic,

the main underlying theme of the whole art is dealing with spontaneity and developing awareness. Awareness of yourself, others, movements and the environment, basically being as aware as possible. The spontaneity aspect is taught to deal with the randomness of life and that anything can happen at any time, we teach how to value simple things such as your breath and the fact that that can be taken from you at any time for no reason. Their is alot of philosophy in the art but basically the techniques reflect the theory.

As a generalisation the development of your martial art (Ninjukai) is based on learning and then unlearning, meaning that you learn a technique but then learn to use it in a number of ways that may vary from the "proper technique" originally taught. Ninjukai has no "kata" except for weapons there are certain routines but this is to get a feel for the weapon in relation to your body movements and is not necessarily practical. Like ninjutsu, Ninjukai doesnt indulge in the commercialisation of the art or affiliate with competition/tournaments. Competition builds and breaks ego rather than continuing development.

I have never been apart of the Bujinkan but one day i would like to, from what i know or have seen the only "similarities" i can see are the particular weapons used and the similiar ways of attack (focus on the eyes and other weak spots). But my lack of knowledge of Bujinkan techniques makes it difficult for me to compare. If you'd like to list in detail a particular technique or way of doing something i'd be happy to let you know if Ninjukai has anything similiar.

thanks.
-andrew

 

[heretic888]

Ummm..... okay.

Listen, andrew, all that stuff is gravy and all... but being "similar to" or having "parallels with" the Takamatsu-den Ninpo traditions does not in any way make the style in question a "ninja school".

Russian Systema, I am told, has a lot of similarities with Ninpo as well. Doesn't make it a "ninja art".

What I would like to know is why these guys are passing themselves off as a "ninja" school. What supposed criteria for such have they established, and why do they believe they have met them??

Have a good one.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Heretic, i think you'll agree that your question is very general, and opens up long conversation, for example if we were on the phone i'm sure this would drag on for hours!

So in short...

Ninjukai believes it is a "Ninja School" because of what out history tells us. And this history often heats people up and causes arguments, for many very understandable reasons. However, Ninjukai practitioners were not practitioners of Ninjutsu, Never claimed to be, and never will, because the two arts are different. Similiar theories, concepts and techniques but different. The main difference is the aspect of the Tao, It was said that Ninjukai was started by "Outlaws in Japan following the Tao". Jushin Oshima in 1924 compiled and refined what was developed by these outlaws and created the first school. What makes it Ninja? Well i guess the philosophies and teachings,the techniques and ways of response, the weapons and methods. The hardest thing about explaining this is the lack of evidence i can provide, Shihan or those before him have never written any books or made any dvd's and there is just the one website, which at best is a brief description. I'm not going to deflect questions or avoid posts, like the tactics of others. I will answer and provide what i can. I have judged the art to and when i started i was extremely judgemental and critical and too thought, so what makes this ninja stuff? But i believe it is, i can say that with first hand experiance. But dont get me wrong, i'm not trying to publicise anything or convince anyone. It would be hard to convince anyone without providing more evidence than a website.

Thankyou for your patience Heretic and your willingness to understand a broader view before you start bashing:jedi1: Its a good sign of character:ultracool
To have the ability to explore and understand before judging...

thanks
-andrew

 

[DaemonLlama]

The main difference is the aspect of the Tao, It was said that Ninjukai was started by "Outlaws in Japan following the Tao".

That's a stetch. Can Don or anyone who is well versed in ACTUAL history of true ninjutsu confirm/discount the following: The ninjas of the early years (say 8th - 12th century) were also Taoists.

 

[Enson]

andrew i can grasp what you are saying... but....

i believed that if one claimed to be a "ninja school", then he/she was indeed claiming to practice ninjutsu.

can anyone confirm or deny that?:idunno:

peace

 

[heretic888]

What makes it Ninja? Well i guess the philosophies and teachings,the techniques and ways of response, the weapons and methods.

No offense, andrew, but this just strikes me as a diversion.

What I'm getting from all of this is that they have no actual historical connection to the "ninja" (i.e., the commando groups from Iga and Koga, or the espionage networks of the Tokugawas), simply believe that what they are doing is in the "spirit" of what the ninja did, and claim "ninja"-hood on such flimsy bases as that.

It sounds to me that the "ninja" label is just being tacked on for name recognition.

That's a stetch. Can Don or anyone who is well versed in ACTUAL history of true ninjutsu confirm/discount the following: The ninjas of the early years (say 8th - 12th century) were also Taoists.

Well, I'm no expert.... but, as far as I know, Taoism was never really well-established in Japan to begin with. In any event, Shugendo, Amatsu Tatara, and Mikkyo seemed to have been more influential to the guys in Iga and Koga anyways.

i believed that if one claimed to be a "ninja school", then he/she was indeed claiming to practice ninjutsu.

Not necessarily. "Ninjutsu" was surely not the only form of martial art the individuals in question studied. Just look at Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu with their close ties to both Togakure ryu and the Momochi-den.

Laterz.

 

[Enson]

Not necessarily. "Ninjutsu" was surely not the only form of martial art the individuals in question studied. Just look at Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu with their close ties to both Togakure ryu and the Momochi-den.

Laterz.

fair enough. i maybe stand corrected. i will have to look into that.
peace

 

[Genin Andrew]

"That's a stetch. Can Don or anyone who is well versed in ACTUAL history of true ninjutsu confirm/discount the following: The ninjas of the early years (say 8th - 12th century) were also Taoists."

When you say "Ninjas" are you referring to ALL Ninja? every clan,from every area? I'm not saying that all Ninja were Taoist's, that would be stupid. Both History and common sense would contradict that statement. From my beliefs however (notice MY beliefs/not trying to convince or speak from a broader perspective than my own) and the beliefs of Ninjukai, some Ninja were Taoist, but its important to know that Taoism is not a religion, it is a way of living, an understanding of life. The Tao Te Ching is by no means a bible, more a collection of philosophical poems. The History and grounding of Taoism in Japan is as "hazy" as the Ninja themselves.

The following is a small extract giving a brief statement of Taoism in Japan, just to clarify your comment DaemonLlama, hope this helps a little.

"Two other religions that were brought into Japan are Confucianism and Taosim. For more than 1,000 years, these religions have had significant impact on Japan's society. The rules of Confucianism have had major impact on the ethical and political philosophy by it's influence during the sixth to ninth centuries and later from 1600 to 1868. The use of the Chinese calendar, fortune-tellers, among other things is a result of Taoism in Japan. It is much harder to trace than Confucianism, it's influences are still seen today."

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/japan/religion.htm

Ninjukai is just what we believe to be another style of the Ninja fighting art, no one else has to believe it, thats fine, there are many reasons and excuses to not believe and pass it off as a bunch of wannabes, thats fine. But i personally dont like to judge without a deep understanding and a little first hand experience/knowledge.

thanks
-andrew

 

[fightingfrenzy]

Ninjas are awsome, I have alot of respect for all the intensive and intricate kind of training that they endure to achieve the supreme level of skill that they attain over the years

 

[Genin Andrew]

lol...flattering...

 

[sojobow]

Why don't we clear up the confusion and create a section for "Authentic" and "Fantasy Ninja"? We could put the X-kans and Toshindo in "Authentic" and Ninjukai, Dux ryu etc in the "Fantasy Ninja" section. I think it would be easy to make the distinction from there.

It's ALL fantasy so I vote for one section for all called "Fantasy"

 

[Don Roley]

That's a stetch. Can Don or anyone who is well versed in ACTUAL history of true ninjutsu confirm/discount the following: The ninjas of the early years (say 8th - 12th century) were also Taoists.

No, they were not. Taoism influenced all of Japan in many ways (such as the adoption of the yin-yang symbol) but people who followed Taoisim as a religion or identified themselves as Taoists were only a handfull at any point in history.

China had and still has a lot of Taoists. And the furthest back we seem to have as eveidence of the ninjukai is John Ang from China. But not Japan.

Druidism influenced Christianity when it came to Britain. The timing of Christmas, the use of a yule log, etc, as well as the outlook of the church in England are all influenced by Druidism and the culture it spawned. But it would be false to say that those that celebrated Christmas in 14th century Englsnd were Druidists. In the same way, Taoism influenced a heck of a lot of things in Japan- including ninjutsu, but the ninja could not be called Taoists.

 

[Kizaru]

No, they were not. Taoism influenced all of Japan in many ways (such as the adoption of the yin-yang symbol) ..... including ninjutsu, but the ninja could not be called Taoists.

You left out Taoism turning into Onmyoudou and "The enduring Dao" mentioned in NINJUTSU GOKUI HIDENSHO. But of course, if you spelled all that out in detail, the crackpots would jump on it in a second wouldn't they? Too bad you can't just lay it all out here because of a few bad apples, eh?

 

[Don Roley]

You left out Taoism turning into Onmyoudou

I thought I covered things like that when I said,

"Taoism influenced all of Japan in many ways (such as the adoption of the yin-yang symbol) but people who followed Taoisim as a religion or identified themselves as Taoists were only a handfull at any point in history."

And of course, Taoism was not the only thing that went into Onmyodou. And the influences of Shinto, Buddhism, Shugendo, etc all came together to create something rather unique in Japan. I do not think you can call ninjas Taoists, anymore than you can call spagetti "ramen." Even though Marco Polo was supposed to have brought back the idea for pasta from China.