Newbies Teachin Newbies

[Don Roley]

Now, given that Hatsumi sensei seems to have a laissez-faire attitude about the situation, what do you suggest be done?

Ah yes, ever hear the term, "Physician, heal thyself"?

I think Jeff knows what I am thinking about and left the bluntness to me, the ogre of this board. But to those that can' t seem to understand I say this- get your own abilities to as high a level as they can before you talk about trying to get others to do as you will in the name of quality control.

And before you ask, this is coming from a person who has spent the last decade in Japan without opening his own dojo. I know I have to get better than I am now. I just know that I can see others that know less than I who presume to tell others how to do things. Don't worry about what other people are doing and concentrate more on your own problems. Oh, you want us to think you don't have any problems and your taijutsu is perfect?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As concerns the matter of high ranks being given, seemingly without merit, I agree with you that they do exist and that this is a problem.

It's only a problem because people make it so.

However, it would be just if, for instance, if going forward all future testing required a demonstration of previously required skills, making the student responsible to either make up any ground they need to, or be ranked upon performance alone.

And how does this take into account students whose memory of techniques deteriorate with age, or people that simply forget about things?

This would have to based upon a uniform set of standards that are known by all in advance.

It would be much cooler if we didn't have to agree upon any kind of standards...the only thing holding us back is the people who try to become like Soke and the shihans nowadays without understanding that they didn't get that good by always practicing the way they do today.

I agree with everything you said, except the part about imposing upon others what they should seek in a teacher, (assuming that I understand your intent) as it seems to me a pointless exercise to question quality without proposing the imposition of uniform standards.

If you can't punch, can't take a hit, can't move your feet, can't twist your hips and your spine, can't do ukemi after being thrown, don't know your kihon happo, don't know your kamae and don't know your distancing, you have better things to do than Shiraishi-influenced sword training.

 

[saru1968]

Mt Taijutsu is not perfect and as always will require work.

I agree with the idea of demonstrting prior knowledge. When i grade my students past 6th Kyu i ask them to demonstrate core components from their previous grades.

But as said before its best just to worry about your own training, rank does not show ability, your Taijutsu does. IMHO

Gary

 

[Cryozombie]

I dont think anyones Taijutsu is perfect, everyone strives to improve, I would bet even Hatsumi would say that about himself.

 

[ninhito]

I dont think anyones Taijutsu is perfect, everyone strives to improve, I would bet even Hatsumi would say that about himself.

yeah but if hes soke wouldnt that mean that his taijutsu is perfect?

 

[Dale Seago]

yeah but if hes soke wouldnt that mean that his taijutsu is perfect?

I don't see that that necessarily follows.

 

[saru1968]

IMHO its a continious (sp?) journey..ongoing, refining, was too short an answer but 'baby' was up one the hour ever hour, so very tired, and if i look for a deeper post i will be some pages long and its too early in the day i've only been awake for less than an hour.



Gary

 

[davidg553]

A while ago at another board...

What board was this? I'm always looking to add to my collection of places to waste my time while at work.

 

[davidg553]

As concerns the matter of high ranks being given, seemingly without merit, I agree with you that they do exist and that this is a problem.

I'm in agreement with Nimravus, its only a problem because people make it a problem. When talking about "high" dan levels I'm assuming that you are referring to those above godan. Don't forget that those who are at those dan levels have been promoted by Hatsumi Soke; given that, who are you to question what their rank is? To say that these ranks are given "seemingly without merit", is to call into question the decisions that Soke makes. Soke promotes as he sees fit and its not our job to second guess him, especially in a public forum.

Sure, some high ranked people have what many of us would consider to be poor basics, but so what? If you don't like their skill don't train with them. Don't recommend them to your friends and students. Decide in your own heart to be better than they are.

Better yet, stop gossiping and put your money where your mouth is. If I'm not mistaken Soke at one point said something to the effect of if you don't think someone is deserving of their rank then go and take it from them. You can come back and report to us how your Bujinkan purification tour is going. Who knows, maybe you'll learn that Soke's art is about more than just perfect technique.

Last time I was in Japan, Hasumi sensei said a couple of things that caught my attention. He said that if you can "see" what he is doing then you really don't. He also said that anyone can "get" what he is teaching (and what the art is about) and that the getting can happen in an instant. There are lots of reasons that Soke promotes as he does and maybe one of those reasons is based upon people "getting" it.

If a white belt "gets" it and is promoted by Soke or one of the Shihan to a dan rank, I'd tend to value their rank more than that of someone who got there because of perfect technical skills and no understanding.

Overall you seem to miss the boat on what rank appears to mean in Japan and in this art. I don't fully understand it myself if, at all, but then again I'm not the one dressing down other people in the art because they don't measure up to my expectations.

I trust the decisions that Soke and his Shihan make. I trust the decisions that my instructor makes. Apart from that I do my best to keep my head down and work on, as Don said, healing myself.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Better yet, stop gossiping and put your money where your mouth is. If I'm not mistaken Soke at one point said something to the effect of if you don't think someone is deserving of their rank then go and take it from them. You can come back and report to us how your Bujinkan purification tour is going. Who knows, maybe you'll learn that Soke's art is about more than just perfect technique.

Actually, the teacher of my teacher, at the time he was still active before his injury, was supposedly told by Hatsumi sensei that he could try to sucker-punch any of the Japanese shihan at will, if he at any time found them to have their guard down. Nowadays I think this applies to all people over tenth dan in the Bujinkan, if you've got a clear shot at them, go for it.

 

[davidg553]

Actually, the teacher of my teacher, at the time he was still active before his injury, was supposedly told by Hatsumi sensei that he could try to sucker-punch any of the Japanese shihan at will, if he at any time found them to have their guard down. Nowadays I think this applies to all people over tenth dan in the Bujinkan, if you've got a clear shot at them, go for it.

The downside being when your attack fails and the response is more than you were looking for.

Personally I'll leave the sucker punching for other people. One of my training partners at Nagato's class was acting as his uke for the entire night. When he (my training partner) kept coming back over not even knowing what we were working on due to the beating he was getting, it was a clue to me that I'm not ready to sucker punch him.

 

[Henso]

Sure, some high ranked people have what many of us would consider to be poor basics, but so what? If you don't like their skill don't train with them. Don't recommend them to your friends and students. Decide in your own heart to be better than they are.

Better yet, stop gossiping and put your money where your mouth is. If I'm not mistaken Soke at one point said something to the effect of if you don't think someone is deserving of their rank then go and take it from them. You can come back and report to us how your Bujinkan purification tour is going. Who knows, maybe you'll learn that Soke's art is about more than just perfect technique.

David,

If you review the balance of my posts, you will notice that I have been advocating that people of your grade (Sandan, I think) and mine, should be allowed to run training groups, so as to make available the teachings of the Bujinkan to all who are interested. As you noted above: "Sure, some high ranked people have what many of us would consider to be poor basics, but so what?"
The so what?, is that others, many who unlike me are critics of Hatsumi Sensei, use the substance of your observation as proofs of their various arguements against everything Sensei has accomplished. Additionally, if you review some of the early comments of Nimravus, whom you quoted above, you will notice that he stated that:"Given the lack of quality assurance in the Bujinkan, I'd rather not take my chances." Which is almost the same setiment as yours quoted above, except the "So what?" is given at the end.

Essentially what I have been trying to say, is that I agree with your statement realting to the basics, and at the same time have heard many echo Nimravus' point which responds to your "So what?" My suggestion, and I hope you will take the time to note that I noted that globally, this was not my responsibility, was at attempt to reconcile these two points.

As concerns the matter of challenging individuals ranks, you will notice that I very deliberately mentioned no a single person, as your observation that I quoted above, general and not specific. In addition to this, the idea that a reflection upon a matter to which we have come to the same intial conclusion, should digress to challenging me to physiaclly challenge others, coupled with accusing me of having missed the boat on the purpose of our training, lends the lie to the very arugement you are making.

Surely we can have an adult conversation where no indivduals are named and nobody's loyalty is questioned, especially not when so many of us have come to the same fundamental conclusion regarding the skill question.

This is the last I have to say on this matter.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The criticism here is not aimed towards Hatsumi. The problem arises when people abuse his given confidence in us, which as we all probably know has happened all too often.

Suppose Hayes, Doron, Munthe, Daniel and the rest of the ol' boys would have stayed and trained with Hatsumi sensei until their knowledge had equalled that of a present day 15th dan like Pedro Fleitas, Peter King, Brin Morgan, Arnaud Cousergue, Tim Bathurst et cetera. What do you think would be different (apart from the Bujinkan probably being unheard of until the mid-90's or something like that)?

 

[Henso]

Although I stated that I wouldn't say anything more on this matter, I noticed that I may have inadvertently implied that those question the skill matter were critics of Hatsumi. This was not my intention, most especially as concerned Nimravus, who I quoted in my previous thread.

 

[davidg553]

Although I stated that I wouldn't say anything more on this matter, I noticed that I may have inadvertently implied that those question the skill matter were critics of Hatsumi. This was not my intention, most especially as concerned Nimravus, who I quoted in my previous thread.

But if your criticizing the rank of someone who was given that rank by Hatsumi soke, then it seems to me, that by default you are criticizing soke.

 

[davidg553]

David,

If you review the balance of my posts, you will notice that I have been advocating that people of your grade (Sandan, I think) and mine, should be allowed to run training groups, so as to make available the teachings of the Bujinkan to all who are interested.

That is true. I'm actually not too concerned with the issue of whether or not people like us should be allowed to run a training group. Hatsumi soke has authorized those under godan to run groups when supervised by a shidoshi, which I am.

I do have to confess, my only reason for starting the group was a selfish one. In order to progress in my own training, I needed to stop fighting the invisible assailants between trips to train with my teacher. Bodies are much better for hitting and throwing than air. I've also heard that soke has said something to the effect that he doesn't care if the Bujinkan gets any bigger.

Given that I have taken on the reponsibilty of being a leader, I take it seriously and do my best to give those who train with me the best training I can.

The so what?, is that others, many who unlike me are critics of Hatsumi Sensei, use the substance of your observation as proofs of their various arguements against everything Sensei has accomplished.

This may not come as a suprise but I don't really care what the critics of Hatsumi soke say or don't say. He doesn't seem to be too concerned so why should I? These people don't affect me or my training. If anyone doesn't like what I teach or think that I'm not skilled enough to be a teacher, it doesn't phase me. My door opens both ways and anyone is free to leave as they please. Hence my use of the term "so what?"

Additionally, if you review some of the early comments of Nimravus, whom you quoted above, you will notice that he stated that:"Given the lack of quality assurance in the Bujinkan, I'd rather not take my chances." Which is almost the same setiment as yours quoted above, except the "So what?" is given at the end.

i
I don't remember everything Nimravus says nor do I agree with everything he says. I don't claim to not have opinions about the skill levels of various high level ranks but I don't dis them on a public forum whether they are named or unnamed. I am very selective about who I do or don't train with, and my "quality assurance" is to not train with those I don't consider to be good.

Essentially what I have been trying to say, is that I agree with your statement realting to the basics, and at the same time have heard many echo Nimravus' point which responds to your "So what?" My suggestion, and I hope you will take the time to note that I noted that globally, this was not my responsibility, was at attempt to reconcile these two points.

I did have several issues (too strong a word?) with your posts. The first being that you were talking down the rank of people who were promoted to their rank by soke. I'm not trying discredit your loyalty and all that as I don't know you. In my opinion when you say that somone is not worthy of the rank that they have then you are ultimately pointing fingers at the person who gave them their rank.

Another thing that irked me (better word?) was your use of definites when talking about how things should be.

"I personnly think that a shodan be required to have substantive knowlegde of the nine Ryuha, and the ability to name and demonstrate certain waza from those where the knowledge is publically available."

In the above quote, your setting a standard that is higher than the one set by soke. The implication that I get is that soke's standard is not good enough. I will say as a disclaimer that we do use a syllabus that is based on the TCJ although full mastery of that not a necessary requirment for protion to shodan (TC for kyuu)

"As I said in a previous comment, whatever they may think their rank is, it is in fact not. These types of practices do mock the efforts of the dedicated and deserving, and I am in agreement with you that something ought to be done about it."

For me that was some strong language. Who are you to say that someone is not the rank that they have. It goes to my point of saying that a person is the rank that they have a menkyo for. If I don't think they are good I avoid them. If the system is good enough for soke why does something have to be done about it?

As concerns the matter of challenging individuals ranks, you will notice that I very deliberately mentioned no a single person, as your observation that I quoted above, general and not specific.

True, you didn't name names but I'm sure that you have a few people in mind. My issue was with the general criticsicm you had for people granted rank by soke that you didn't feel they were deserving of. If you were only knocking those below godan (not promoted by soke or the shihan) then I apologize.

[qoute]In addition to this, the idea that a reflection upon a matter to which we have come to the same intial conclusion, should digress to challenging me to physiaclly challenge others, coupled with accusing me of having missed the boat on the purpose of our training, lends the lie to the very arugement you are making.[/quote]
Maybe you have missed the boat or maybe you haven't. I don't know. I really don't know anything about you other than what I have read here. I'm sure that you are aware that I used the term "it seems", in other words my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That is the danger of posting on an online forum.

I didn't realize that I was "challenging" you. I was paraphrasing soke and trying to, however badly, point out that carrying on about the suckiness factor of various people (named or unnamed) on a public forum is not the "Bujinkan" way to deal with it.

Surely we can have an adult conversation where no indivduals are named and nobody's loyalty is questioned, especially not when so many of us have come to the same fundamental conclusion regarding the skill question.

It sounds I'm being accused of not being "adult" in my conversation. I haven't questioned loyalty, I've questioned perspective and criticism of those promoted by soke.

This is the last I have to say on this matter.

Now that is truly the adult way to have a conversation. The cyberspace equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

Like I said, you may be the greatest, most loyal, best-hearted person in the Bujinkan. I'm going by the postings here. You said what you had to say and I said what I did. Don't get all pissy because I came on strong over some of the things you said.

Anyways, sometimes I can't help posting the way that I do. Its in my nature. Just ask Kreth.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I think all the above argument stems from the one thing we are not supposed to be doing, worrying about what others are or are not. We have enough confusion and time spent just trying to figure out what it is we are supposed to be doing. We should not worry about where we are; leave that up to our teachers. If we have those whom we are charged with helping learn this art; we should worry about them. Soke does what he does, it is his to make those decicions. In the end when a violent confrontation starts, it will not matter what hangs around my waist. Nor that I can hold up a certificate that says I am this. At that time it will only matter what I have managed to learn, and will be in no way affected by what someone else is, or what someone else says that I am or am not. Just keep going, and do the best that you can, it is all that anyone can ask.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Keeping going is not enough. You have to keep going correctly.

 

[Cryozombie]

I dunno Nim, if you just keep going, maybe eventually you will find "right"

:idunno:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Would you bet on that? If so, why do people continue going to Japan instead of perfecting themselves at home?