New X-kan?

[Chuck Jackson]

Greetings all,
I have read through this thread a few times and, honestly, I find many of the posts quite disturbing. My initial thoughts were not to respond to any of the posts here. However, I believe some of the people posting on this forum genuinely want accurate information on Jizaikan. For those of you who fall into this category, if it is possible you should really just visit one of the Jizaikan schools, listed on the jizaikan.com website, and speak directly with one of the instructors. Or, better yet take an introductory class and get some first hand information. I realize, with the limited number of schools at present, this is not possible for some, so the following paragraphs will give my experience and opinion of Mr. Maienza and Jizaikan.

I am currenlty in my 28th year of martial arts training. I started ninjutsu just over 5 years ago in To Shin Do. At that time we held Bujinkan classes twice a week to hold to the older tradition. The Bujinkan training, although interesting, did not fit with what I was looking for, this is not saying it is bad or ineffective, the Bujinkan just wasn't for me. To Shin Do fit a little better, the narrower stances, or kamae, were easier for me to work with and fit my way of moving a little better. I currently hold Shodan in To Shin Do. Jizaikan is an even better fit for me than Bujinkan or To Shin Do.

Now, I will not say anything bad about Mr. Hayes or Dr. Hatsumi. I have not met or trained with either of them. I do have a great deal of respect for them both and believe that anyone training under them has a great teacher. I feel the same way about Mr. Maienza. I have been fortunate enough to train under Mr. Maienza in To Shin Do and more recently in Jizaikan and have been to several seminars that Mr. Maienza has hosted. I believe he is doing what he feels is best for himself, his students and ultimately ninjutsu itself. If you really want to know about Mr. Maienza, then the best way to do that is to attend a seminar or visit his school and train with him.

If anyone has specific questions about Jizaikan, I will do my best to answer them as completely and honestly as I can from my own experience. If anyone wants to reply just to insult Mr. Maienza then I will simply ignore the post because I think it's silly to insult someone you've never met and it's not productive.

 

[ginshun]

Greetings all,
I have read through this thread a few times and, honestly, I find many of the posts quite disturbing. My initial thoughts were not to respond to any of the posts here. However, I believe some of the people posting on this forum genuinely want accurate information on Jizaikan. For those of you who fall into this category, if it is possible you should really just visit one of the Jizaikan schools, listed on the jizaikan.com website, and speak directly with one of the instructors. Or, better yet take an introductory class and get some first hand information. I realize, with the limited number of schools at present, this is not possible for some, so the following paragraphs will give my experience and opinion of Mr. Maienza and Jizaikan.

I am currenlty in my 28th year of martial arts training. I started ninjutsu just over 5 years ago in To Shin Do. At that time we held Bujinkan classes twice a week to hold to the older tradition. The Bujinkan training, although interesting, did not fit with what I was looking for, this is not saying it is bad or ineffective, the Bujinkan just wasn't for me. To Shin Do fit a little better, the narrower stances, or kamae, were easier for me to work with and fit my way of moving a little better. I currently hold Shodan in To Shin Do. Jizaikan is an even better fit for me than Bujinkan or To Shin Do.

Now, I will not say anything bad about Mr. Hayes or Dr. Hatsumi. I have not met or trained with either of them. I do have a great deal of respect for them both and believe that anyone training under them has a great teacher. I feel the same way about Mr. Maienza. I have been fortunate enough to train under Mr. Maienza in To Shin Do and more recently in Jizaikan and have been to several seminars that Mr. Maienza has hosted. I believe he is doing what he feels is best for himself, his students and ultimately ninjutsu itself. If you really want to know about Mr. Maienza, then the best way to do that is to attend a seminar or visit his school and train with him.

If anyone has specific questions about Jizaikan, I will do my best to answer them as completely and honestly as I can from my own experience. If anyone wants to reply just to insult Mr. Maienza then I will simply ignore the post because I think it's silly to insult someone you've never met and it's not productive.

Greetings!

Could you outline what you believe to be the major differences bewteen Jizaikan, Bujinkan and To-Shin-Do? No need for a dissertation, just a few examples of what you believe are the main ways they differ.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

the narrower stances, or kamae, were easier for me to work with and fit my way of moving a little better.

I used to think like that too. And whenever I got into a stressful situation, I could literally feel my legs straightening up and I lost 90 percent of my ability to generate power with my lower body.

 

[Chuck Jackson]

From my experience, Bujinkan has very large, powerful movements. To Shin Do changed the postures to be more narrow, similar to wester boxing,more upright. Narrowing the postures allowed faster movement. The core principles remained the same. Jizaikan kept all of the core principles of it's predecessors, but emphasizes more circular movement and added more ground fighting. This is what I have seen so far, but I have a lot more to learn so, the list of differences is incomplete.

Chuck

 

[Chuck Jackson]

I used to think like that too. And whenever I got into a stressful situation, I could literally feel my legs straightening up and I lost 90 percent of my ability to generate power with my lower body.

I'm told this happens a lot. With me it's just the opposite, I tend to get lower and wider. I'm a large person and used to do some bodybuilding and I think from that experience when stressed I treat everything like a power lift situation. So, for me training a more narrow and upright system works better.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

From my experience, Bujinkan has very large, powerful movements. To Shin Do changed the postures to be more narrow, similar to wester boxing,more upright. Narrowing the postures allowed faster movement. The core principles remained the same. Jizaikan kept all of the core principles of it's predecessors, but emphasizes more circular movement and added more ground fighting. This is what I have seen so far, but I have a lot more to learn so, the list of differences is incomplete.

Chuck

Chuck you obviously have not seen Hatsumi Soke move in the last 15 years or so. His movement is very, very small and compact with a higher stance. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu allows the practitioner to move according to their needs at the moment. Big, medium, small does not really matter, it is being in the right place at the right time, controlling the distance and your opponents physical and mental balance. You probably would be very shocked if you went to Japan and saw how differantly people move in Budo Taijutsu.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Bigshadow]

Hmmm... I have never seen Hatsumi Soke make large movements. Also, I haven't seen Hatsumi Soke have to move real fast either.

 

[Chuck Jackson]

Chuck you obviously have not seen Hatsumi Soke move in the last 15 years or so. His movement is very, very small and compact with a higher stance. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu allows the practitioner to move according to their needs at the moment. Big, medium, small does not really matter, it is being in the right place at the right time, controlling the distance and your opponents physical and mental balance. You probably would be very shocked if you went to Japan and saw how differantly people move in Budo Taijutsu.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Your are correct, I haven't seen Dr. Hatsumi except in video, and I haven't trained under him. I was speaking from my experience with teachers that I have had here. What I learned from them may have been their interpretation of what the Bujinkan has to offer, in which case I may not have gotten the true meaning of the art.

 

[Bigshadow]

Anyone heard of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu? I was surfing the net and came across this site. www.jizaikan.com/default.htm

I find it interesting he has combined elements of Aikido with Ninjutsu. It's really up my ally.

Any thoughts?

MrFunnieman

To answer the original post...

No I hadn't heard of it until now.

My thoughts and opinion...? Well, it seems to be a system that someone has put together based on the collective amount of knowledge they have received and is now marketing it. Much the same way that SKH did. I wouldn't call it another Kan, just a new system someone pieced together.

Would *I* take interest in it? No. If I were going to train in Ninjutsu, then I would prefer to get my training from as close to the source as I could possibly get.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm a large person and used to do some bodybuilding and I think from that experience when stressed I treat everything like a power lift situation. So, for me training a more narrow and upright system works better.

You don't even need to train with your strength, then.

 

[Chuck Jackson]

You don't even need to train with your strength, then.

That's correct. My biggest challenge has been to move away from using a muscular attack.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That's correct. My biggest challenge has been to move away from using a muscular attack.

That will serve you well in the future as your body ages!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Cryozombie]

From my experience, Bujinkan has very large, powerful movements. To Shin Do changed the postures to be more narrow, similar to wester boxing,more upright. Narrowing the postures allowed faster movement. The core principles remained the same. Jizaikan kept all of the core principles of it's predecessors, but emphasizes more circular movement and added more ground fighting. This is what I have seen so far, but I have a lot more to learn so, the list of differences is incomplete.

Chuck

Ah, interesting. It sounds like this approach is designed to eliminate the middleman, so to speak, and get right to the heart of the movements. In BBT, Ive been taught that the larger movements are to train the understanding of the body dynamics, and then as you become more and more proficienct you make them smaller and tighter... so it sounds like the Jizaikan and BBT have the same goal, just a different approach to getting there...

 

[Don Roley]

You are probably right, I should have been more specific and said ""if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your taijutsu / ninjutsu training sucks"

That is probably a more accurate description of the prevailing attitude. I do however think that there is a decent number of japanophiles around here that think that no westerner could ever teach you any kind of martial art as good as a japanese could, but they would never come right out and say it. I won't say who, and its just my opinion, so take it for what its worth, but it is something to keep in mind.

Oh, I think most people can tell that you are taking a swipe at me.

And the idea that your should be training in Japan, or with someone who does, is the advice of Hatsumi himself.

And I think it is just good advice if you want to get good. People that do not go those who know more than them tend to wander off in different directions. So if you train under someone who has not gone to Japan, and just does his own thing, then you are probably going to go off on another tangent. And if you want to learn ninjutsu, then that would be a bad thing.

And I really look for that type of thing in someone claiming to teach a ninjutsu style they made up on their own. I can imagine someone coming up with a new art that is not ninjutsu that only did a short period of time with ninjutsu. But if someone want to call what they do ninjutsu, then I would kind of expect them to do their darndest to learn as much as they could from the most knowledgeable teachers they could. That would be Hatsumi or someone who has menkyo Kaiden in Togakure ryu- not one of their students.

Students are not bad, it is just that I feel that if you want to start your own style of ninjutsu you have to get as much knowledge as possible about the subject matter. I have seen groups like Tew ryu and Nindo ryu who want to present themselves as modern ninjutsu styles, but seem to do the bare minimum to try to qualify as having a link to ninjutsu in Japan. It has colored my view and made me suspicious of groups like Jizaikan, especially since they buried the mention that their founder was a fourth dan in Bujinkan but talk a lot about him going to a fifth dan test. They don't say he got a fifth dan, but I think most people would naturally assume that. That seems a bit deceptive to me.

 

[Cryozombie]

It has colored my view and made me suspicious of groups like Jizaikan, especially since they buried the mention that their founder was a fourth dan in Bujinkan but talk a lot about him going to a fifth dan test. They don't say he got a fifth dan, but I think most people would naturally assume that. That seems a bit deceptive to me.

Hey Don, I do have a question for you. In the Bujinkan, by 4th or even 5th Dan, how much actual exposure to the Ninjutsu side of training do most people have? I've seen some sword stuff from Luke, and a couple techniques that I was told come from Togakure-ryu... oh, and an old Video... but not much actual exposure beyond that. How much is taught regularly?

 

[Don Roley]

Hey Don, I do have a question for you. In the Bujinkan, by 4th or even 5th Dan, how much actual exposure to the Ninjutsu side of training do most people have? I've seen some sword stuff from Luke, and a couple techniques that I was told come from Togakure-ryu... oh, and an old Video... but not much actual exposure beyond that. How much is taught regularly?

It depends. Some people know the kata from the Togakure ryu, some people do not or don't teach it. In my experience, we spend a lot more time with Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu than Togakure ryu because those arts are just so much broader in their potential.

The kata for the Togakure ryu was not really taught until about the early 90s for the most part. You look at the stuff on the old tapes and you see Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu and Kukishinden ryu. I don't think I have ever seen a Togakure ryu kata done in the west before the tape from Quest came out. Obviously the Japanese shihan like Noguchi knew them. But you kind of need to know the Koto and Gyokko ryus before you get much into Togakure ryu and that is what they were trying to get across to visitors it seems.

 

[Chuck Jackson]

That will serve you well in the future as your body ages!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Unfortunately I seem to be aging faster than anyone else around me. I've had a lot of knee and hip injuries in the past so I can no longer do any of the kicking arts that I enjoyed when I was younger. The art I study now makes me feel like I can still be an effective fighter.

Chuck

 

[Chuck Jackson]

Ah, interesting. It sounds like this approach is designed to eliminate the middleman, so to speak, and get right to the heart of the movements. In BBT, Ive been taught that the larger movements are to train the understanding of the body dynamics, and then as you become more and more proficienct you make them smaller and tighter... so it sounds like the Jizaikan and BBT have the same goal, just a different approach to getting there...

This may be. I know in Jizaikan we start with small, tight movements which works well for me. The BBT training I did never progressed passed the big movements, but my teachers may not have felt I was ready for the smaller, tighter movements, so I never saw that side of the art.

Chuck

 

[ginshun]

Oh, I think most people can tell that you are taking a swipe at me.

And the idea that your should be training in Japan, or with someone who does, is the advice of Hatsumi himself.

And I think it is just good advice if you want to get good. People that do not go those who know more than them tend to wander off in different directions. So if you train under someone who has not gone to Japan, and just does his own thing, then you are probably going to go off on another tangent. And if you want to learn ninjutsu, then that would be a bad thing.

And I really look for that type of thing in someone claiming to teach a ninjutsu style they made up on their own. I can imagine someone coming up with a new art that is not ninjutsu that only did a short period of time with ninjutsu. But if someone want to call what they do ninjutsu, then I would kind of expect them to do their darndest to learn as much as they could from the most knowledgeable teachers they could. That would be Hatsumi or someone who has menkyo Kaiden in Togakure ryu- not one of their students.

Students are not bad, it is just that I feel that if you want to start your own style of ninjutsu you have to get as much knowledge as possible about the subject matter. I have seen groups like Tew ryu and Nindo ryu who want to present themselves as modern ninjutsu styles, but seem to do the bare minimum to try to qualify as having a link to ninjutsu in Japan. It has colored my view and made me suspicious of groups like Jizaikan, especially since they buried the mention that their founder was a fourth dan in Bujinkan but talk a lot about him going to a fifth dan test. They don't say he got a fifth dan, but I think most people would naturally assume that. That seems a bit deceptive to me.

It wasn't meant to be a shot at anybody specifically, but I think that you have confirmed that the opinion that I hold is in fact true. Thank you for clearifiing it a bit more though.

 

[Fu_Bag]

The idea of this new x-kan is interesting. I don't think I'd start my own art and call any part of it "ninjutsu" though, if for no other reason than I'd get sick of my *** having to do a sakki avoidance of Don Roley's foot every five seconds, all day, everyday. Aside from that, let the test of time begin.

As a matter of fact, due to people insisting that training directly at the source is the only way to train, I went and found an instructor and we started our own style. We call it "Poohjutsu" "The Way of Moving Like Pooh". Actually, it's based around a programmable Winnie the Pooh toy that I've programmed to say

"No Fu Bag-san!!! Lower!!! You must lower your butt to the floor if you want to be one with Poohjutsu!!!",

"When you can snatch the batteries from my butt, you will be ready to leave the temple",

"Ah, Fu Bag-san... The way of Poohjutsu is not for everyone. You must be a little bit crazy to put up with Pooh for the length of your life",

"No, no, Fu Bag-san. To become anything, you must learn to put up with Pooh, have natural movement, and never, ever give up!!! Gambatte!!!"

p.s. Oh yes, there WILL be a home study course available to select students...... Stay tuned....