Names and definitions...

Discussion in 'JKD / Jeet Kune Do' started by GouRonin, Oct 4, 2001.

  1. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    In the latest issue of Black belt mag, which is by no means gospel, Inosanto say that he refers to the art that Lee taught as that inosanto still teaches as "Jun Fan Gung Fu" and that the art and ideas that spring forth from it are "Jeet Kune Do." (sp)

    Is Jun Fan Gung Fu taught by anyone and NOT the JKD concepts and principles?

    I wonder if there is someone out there who is totally traditional with what he was taught and kept it that way? I imagine it'd be some guy in his garage somewhere but do you think it's possible?:confused:
     
  2. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    This could start ye olde familiar debate on 'original' vs. 'concepts' JKD.

    There are people who teach Jun Fan Gung Fu, like Lamar Davis. However, he teaches it under Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD, calling Jun Fan 'original' JKD. What gets me is that this goes against what Bruce Lee advocated as JKD, whereas Davis's approach is limited since he is teaching JFGF/JKD as a concrete 'style'. He seems to be doing his best to teach what Bruce Lee taught while he was alive, exactly as he taught it. However, Lee's lessons were constantly evolving as his research into the martial arts continued. So, the question is, what version of so-called 'original' JKD is Davis teaching? During Lee's Oakland period? L.A.? Before or after he closed his schools?

    From my research, Jun Fan Gung Fu is originally based on Lee's modified Wing Chun, with stuff from fencing, savate, boxing, etc. added. It is the tool set he had to help him develop his concepts and ideas that came to be known as JKD. From what I've seen, Jun Fan Gung Fu/kickboxing can be taught as a system or style. JKD cannot. JKD can only be applied to whatever system or style you've already learned.

    Cthulhu
     
  3. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    Bruce Lee taught several systems. He taught Jun Fan Gung Fu, Tao of Chinese Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do.(incidently Dan was the only person to be certified in all three) JKD was his last effort and the result of all that he had accumulated with assistance from Dan Inosanto. JKD does have stylistic techniques specific to it. It is however a matrix by which everything is fitted into. If it doesn't fit it is not applied. Conceptually, JKD allows us to view everything we look at in other styles and allows us to adapt to that fighter way of movement. Jun Fan Gung Fu was Bruce's expression of this learning and evolutiuon prior to the development of the term JKD. There are those who believe they are teaching JKD prior to Dan,s infusion of FMA and other arts. In truth JKD was developed from the use of 26 different styles. This was being done WHILE Bruce was teaching Jun Fan and before he termed it JKD.

    If interested here are the styles:::::
    Wing Chun
    Northern Praying Mantis
    Southern Praying Mantis
    Bok Pai
    Hsing i
    Choy Li Fut
    Tai Chi Chuan (Wu Family/System)
    Paqua
    Eagle Claw
    Bak Hoo Pai
    Bak Fu Pai
    Ng Ga Kuen
    Ny Ying Ga
    Southern Shaolin
    Northern Shaolin
    Law Horn Kuen
    Chin Na
    Monkey Style
    Drunken Style
    Western Fencing (stop hits and intercepts)
    Western Boxing
    Wrestling
    Jujitsu & Judo
    Escrima
    Filipino Sikaran
    Muay Thai

    I think a better question is "would you want to train with someone teaching Original JKD with no infusion of evolutionary techniques. Bruce did all of this because it was incomplete. He wanted people to adjust, move on and evolve not marry themselves to any one style and become a slave to its doctrine and traditions. Dan has simply done what he and Bruce started. He moved on. The lazer guided JKD that exists today thanks to Dan is so much more than the musket of OJKD. But also that musket existed when everyone else still had sling shots. Also it should be noted that Bruce's idea of an interception was a high hook kick. Because he could. To date I have seen no one else that could do that. Most interceptions are lead hand punches or low shuffle kicks to the shins or groin.

    As usual Cthu, I really enjoyed your response. Much knowledge. I gain alot from your posts. Thanks

    Miller
     
  4. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Heh, I thought it was 27 styles...

    Many thanks for your compliments, Jim. Now stop, you'll make me blush :) I appreciate all the feedback you've given. It's great to bounce my crackpot ideas off somebody 'in the loop'.

    I was aware of the influence of all those systems, but: 1) can't remember the names of all of them, and 2) wasn't crazy enough to list them :)

    I did neglect to mention the Tao of Chinese Gung Fu, but most people claiming to teach JKD either mention Jun Fan and/or JKD. I think DeMile teaches "Tao of Wing Chun" or "Tao of Wing Chun Do" or somesuch. Does Glover call what he teaches Tao of Chinese Gung Fu? I forget.

    I like your weapon systems comparison of 'original' JKD with what I'll call 'modern' JKD (modern just to differentiate the two regarding to time/era). So much has changed in the near-30 years since Lee died. It'd be like the U.S. military teaching their pilots to dogfight with Sopwith Camels, neglecting the advances made in technology and piloting theories since WWI. Sure, the basic concepts may still apply, but things change over time, and the techniques and methods must change with them.

    I wish I could intercept with a high hook kick! Oh, and as an emphasis on how things change, I'd like to point out that in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do (published in '75), Lee's hook kick is what is now generally called a roundhouse and his reverse-hook kick is the modern hook kick.

    I think a big factor is that Lee is such a HUGE icon in the martial arts world. I think some people think that in order to sell themselves as JKD teachers, they have to make themselves as Lee-like as they can. Another factor is that many of them can't seem to move on as Inosanto has. I may be a pontificating geek, but as Lee said:"...it's like a finger pointing the way to the moon...don't concentrate on the finger or you'll miss all that heavenly glory." In my eyes, the people sticking to 'original' JKD can't take their eyes off that finger. Dan's been walkin' on the moon for some time, though.

    However, in my mind, and I'm sure it's the same for most serious martial artists, when someone mentions JKD, the first name to pop into their heads is Bruce Lee. Right after that, Dan Inosanto. People can say they teach the EXACT curriculum Lee taught in '68, or '70, or blah blah blah, but they can't ignore what Inosanto has done since Lee died. JKD would not be where it is today if not for Inosanto.

    Hmmmm. This may be a bit disjointed, since I've gone back over and added stuff without editing the stuff I've written previously. Oh well. I'm sure you get my point. That, or I've simply rambled on again. Must...think...linearly...or...shut...my...damn...mouth...

    Cthulhu
     
  5. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    It's so simple. Someone mentions JKD and I start going on and on. I have actually inserted both feet and a knee in my mouth already and have to watch for that. It does seem as a side note that the answers that Dan gives in an interview are so condensed to make it appropriate to print. He explains things so much more thoroughly and it changes the way you see it. He has described JKD as the concept and JUn Fan as the technique but he was simplifying it. In the end OJKD and JKDC is a political nightmare that Dan has tried to graciously bow out of. He is simply doing what he thinks Bruce would have wanted him to do.

    Cthu: I will temper the compliments. hate to see ya blush you may loose that killer instinct. :D

    Miller
     
  6. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    I appreciate your discretion, Jim :)

    I'm glad Inosanto elected to stay out of the now defunct JKD Society and the Jun Fan/JKD Nucleus. I foresee three possibilites had he joined one of these organizations:

    1) They would have tried to influence his teaching methods with their own personal opinions on JKD.

    2) Same as (1), but this would have caused him to leave the organization.

    3) They would start viewing his version of JKD as 'the Way', which I'm sure is something he doesn't want.

    Getting down to brass tacks, it's pretty simple. When Lee stepped down from teaching full time, those responsibilities were handed down to Dan. Some people debate this, but these people are usually the ones with questionable certification. Dan may not have been the first instructor certified by Bruce (in fact, Taky Kimura is his 'senior' going by the gung fu system of seniority), but he was with Bruce for nearly the entire development of what would become JKD. He was there as the concepts developed, he was there when they were refined, he was there when they were given a name. He is the foremost authority on JKD in our time. Kimura is his acknowledged senior, but no one else has developed JKD as Inosanto has, while still following Lee's wishes to not let the methods become doctrine and to allow the art to evolve with the practitioner.
    For serious students of Bruce Lee's concepts...for those who 'get it'...when Inosanto speaks about JKD, we listen. We take that information, absorb it, dissolve it, and move on.

    Cthulhu
    Rambling on
     
  7. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    sorry...I can't resist......:cool: Are you sure you're not a jkd man???? well said. ...........I'll keep trying.
     
  8. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    What an excellent way to describe Dan Inosanto's actions.:D
     
  9. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    ...never found an authentic instructor where I've lived. When I do, though...watch out! :)

    I really consider myself to be a student of Bruce Lee. That being said, it's impossible to understand Bruce Lee without studying JKD, and I feel the reverse is true as well. Putting it another way, my understanding of JKD comes as a byproduct from my research into Bruce Lee.

    I really do hope to one day train under a certified JKD instructor, preferably one from Inosanto's lineage. I just haven't been fortunate enough to run across one. Yet. :)

    Cthulhu
     
  10. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    You really need to consider Intensive Personal Training Programs. The thought or paradyme of classes in the traditional sense is not the way to go for someone looking into JKD. If you have a background in MA. The thought is that attributes and how to develop them are by far more important than technique. Often it is an intense alteration in the way we look at something that brings JKD alive. Emphasising functionality over other ways of training, 8 to 10 hours in a semi private or for some private training session can have a huge impact. Because of where I live I do most of my teaching through IPTPs and they are incredible. This takes away the need for having to have someone in your area
     
  11. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    That does sound intriguing. I'll have to look into that.

    I don't think one can 'learn' JKD by oneself, which is another reason I don't call myself a JKD student. An instructor or skilled partner is necessary. I believe this to be so because it seems that most JKD 'branches' rely on some sort of sensitivity training, be it chi sao, hubud, what have you. That is impossible to learn without feedback from a partner. Basic tool development (hand/foot techniques, blocks, parries, etc.) can easily be trained without a partner. However, a partner is vital to help train the application of these tools via partner drills and sparring (most important!).

    Eventually, I know I'll end up training with a JKD instructor. It may be next year, it may be when I'm 70, but it'll happen. Right now, I'm glad I have a lot of research material to study and have the ability to bounce my whackjob ideas off of JKD practitioners. :)

    Cthulhu
     
  12. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    There is never enough time to study all the arts you want is there?:D
     
  13. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    FIND A TRAINING PARTNER ALSO INTO JKD. at minimum don't let the sensitivity training part stop you. Hey were you the one interested in the Hubud ? If so I will send you a tape that has some hubud in it. The trapping tech is GREAT. I think you will get much from it. Give it a try. I just haven't had the time to do the hubud thing yet. I did put some aspects of it in the trapping tape however. Will send out this week
     
  14. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    My instructor advocates Hubud drills all the time. He studies JKD under Paul Irish of Brantford Ontario Canada who is in turn a student of Larry Hartsell who we all know where he's been.

    I love hubud for it's flow and sensitivity. So sure, anything you want to send to me send it to my office.

    Gou Ronin
    c/o Mad Dog & Winston: Paw Products
    900 Pondview Road
    Suite 170
    London Ontario Canada
    N5Z 4L7:D
     
  15. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    will send, hope you enjoy it
     
  16. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    I'll notify the front desk to look for ticking packages. Ha ha ha ha! :eek:
     
  17. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    ...that was me. I think I had asked for a sensitivity tape.

    Hey, man, if I could find a JKD student in my area, I'd be training with him already :)

    I think the nearest instructor is in Orlando, FL, which is about an hour drive away. Actually, he's a Vunak certified instructor...something Rodriguez, I think. Anyway, that's just too far for me to drive and my poor old car couldn't take it anyway. Tell Paul to send some instructors to south Brevard County, FL, will ya? :)

    I look forward to that tape. Even if I can't find a JKD instructor, the TKD guy I train with would probably be more than willing to work on some of that stuff with me.

    Cthulhu
     
  18. IFAJKD

    IFAJKD Guest

    Hey...I will check with Paul but I believe he's going to be in Florida soon for a seminar and IPTPs afterward. Would be fun. Also I am planning a trip to florida in Jan for some fishing. not sure what area but I believe that the person I am going with plans on staying in Tampa for a few. I will get your tape out too. Just give me some useful feedback after you view it
     
  19. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    ...for about 14 years. My brother and parents are still there. I'm on the other side of the state, now.

    If I read the Web site correctly, those IPTPs thingies are waaaaay out of my price range. It'd be great if I could afford it. Alas, I can't...

    I'll be sure to criticize the hell out of the tape :D

    Cthulhu
     
  20. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    He'll never be as good looking as me. That alone depreciates the video.
    :D123
     

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