Muzzleloader discovery leads to Michigan man's death

[arnisador]

Even a classroom class or two in gun safety--without a lab. component--would probably help save lives. That's a good thing. We don't have guns but made sure our kids knew the basics, and had them read some basic gun safety material. Friends had them at their houses, after all--anything could happen. I'd certainly support adding gun safety, CPR, and a few other basic skills that are safety/citizenship issues to the schools. The Second Amendment is important, and with it comes a society in which people will have firearms.

Oh wait, I know why. To teach them how to handle them safely will destroy their fear of guns, and any good anti-gunner sure would not want that.

Let's be fair--you could turn this around and talk about the NRA. They'd defend your right to own the Russian nuclear arsenal if you could afford it.

 

[KenpoTex]

Let's be fair--you could turn this around and talk about the NRA. They'd defend your right to own the Russian nuclear arsenal if you could afford it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Let's be fair--you could turn this around and talk about the NRA. They'd defend your right to own the Russian nuclear arsenal if you could afford it.

That's neither fair nor remotely true.

And the 'guns equals nuclear weapons' argument is a common Non sequitur of anti-gunners........it's the same as linking the right to criticize the government with child pornography in order suppress the right to criticize the government......'it does not follow'.

 

[grydth]

I feel the same way. We teach them how to drive a car, 'safe sex' (is there really such a thing?), and run a computer. So why not teach them how to handle a gun safely? It's not like they are rare.

Oh wait, I know why. To teach them how to handle them safely will destroy their fear of guns, and any good anti-gunner sure would not want that. This is expecially true for schools since the teachers unions are pretty anti-gun! No gun safety, more of them fear guns. If a few kids get killed, well that's the price to take guns out of society.

Deaf

Well, it is hard to argue against educating kids on this... but we need to be realistic about how much it will work.

Sure we teach kids about driving - and how safe do you feel on a highway? We do have sex education - and an explosion of teen births; kids with DARE certificates are popping pills in the bathrooms. Kids have computer skills, sure - 13 year old girls can now send nude pictures all over and threaten other kids on Facebook.

Education reaches and helps many kids, but never imagine that classes alone will prevent instances like this one.

As to fear of guns, I have to disagree with you. I think we should teach a healthy fear. I've been shooting and driving for decades, but I am still afraid when I lock and load or turn an ignition key. That fear reminds me that I or somebody else can be dead pdq if I don't pay attention and take every precaution. Its the morons without fear that'll kill you every time on the highway or with a gun.

 

[theletch1]

Well, it is hard to argue against educating kids on this... but we need to be realistic about how much it will work.

Sure we teach kids about driving - and how safe do you feel on a highway? We do have sex education - and an explosion of teen births; kids with DARE certificates are popping pills in the bathrooms. Kids have computer skills, sure - 13 year old girls can now send nude pictures all over and threaten other kids on Facebook.

Education reaches and helps many kids, but never imagine that classes alone will prevent instances like this one.

As to fear of guns, I have to disagree with you. I think we should teach a healthy fear. I've been shooting and driving for decades, but I am still afraid when I lock and load or turn an ignition key. That fear reminds me that I or somebody else can be dead pdq if I don't pay attention and take every precaution. Its the morons without fear that'll kill you every time on the highway or with a gun.

It's not a healthy fear of guns that's needed, it's a healthy respect that's needed. Same for the other examples that you gave. No one should fear drugs, sex or whatever. There needs to be a healthy respect for the consequences of abusing/partaking in these actions. Fear is irrational. It relies, not on information and reasoned thought, but on an ethereal "something" that isn't easily explained. I drive an 18 wheeler for a living and if I felt fear each day as I climbed into the cab I'd have parked my rig a long time ago. What I DO have is a healthy respect for what it takes to move an 80,000 lb rig safely down the road while in close proximity with a ton of others who may or may not have that same respect for the danger of what they are doing.

edit: when I was in middle school many decades ago we had the hunter safety and archery classes. I don't think the schools around here have it anymore. For a while in the Commonwealth of Virginia anyone under 18 could not obtain a hunting license without the safety class certification.

 

[arnisador]

That's neither fair nor remotely true.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that the two are equivalent. I was suggesting that the comments about gun-restriction advocates here are a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black. No one is more knee-jerk in their reactions than the NRA--they're the canonical example of a group that would oppose legislation they actually favour for fear that if it went through it might lead to legislation they oppose. To make as though gun control advocates are the only one staking an exaggerated position is outlandish.

 

[grydth]

It's not a healthy fear of guns that's needed, it's a healthy respect that's needed. Same for the other examples that you gave. No one should fear drugs, sex or whatever. There needs to be a healthy respect for the consequences of abusing/partaking in these actions. Fear is irrational. It relies, not on information and reasoned thought, but on an ethereal "something" that isn't easily explained. I drive an 18 wheeler for a living and if I felt fear each day as I climbed into the cab I'd have parked my rig a long time ago. What I DO have is a healthy respect for what it takes to move an 80,000 lb rig safely down the road while in close proximity with a ton of others who may or may not have that same respect for the danger of what they are doing.

edit: when I was in middle school many decades ago we had the hunter safety and archery classes. I don't think the schools around here have it anymore. For a while in the Commonwealth of Virginia anyone under 18 could not obtain a hunting license without the safety class certification.

To a significant extent, I suspect my "healthy fear" is akin to your "respect".... while I disagree on some minor tangential points, I would rather yield than untrack the thread with a debate on semantics.

With respect to school courses, I do not see such offered anywheres here. Both our boys had training in the Boy Scouts and other private sources, including the NRA, are available.

 

[grydth]

I wasn't seriously suggesting that the two are equivalent. I was suggesting that the comments about gun-restriction advocates here are a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black. No one is more knee-jerk in their reactions than the NRA--they're the canonical example of a group that would oppose legislation they actually favour for fear that if it went through it might lead to legislation they oppose. To make as though gun control advocates are the only one staking an exaggerated position is outlandish.

The two groups can work together to pass common sense legislation - witness the NRA and Senator Schumer agreeing on legislation to keep guns out of the hands of maniacs just after the Virginia Tech massacre.

Nothing gets done when the nation is completely polarized, as it was during the Bush-Clinton era. I recall Bill Clinton describing, wrongly as it turned out, his 1994 gun legislation as 'the camel's nose getting under the tent' - with rhetoric like that, it is understandable that the NRA would take the positions it has.

 

[tellner]

We do have sex education - and an explosion of teen births;

Not exactly. What we had was an "explosion" of teen births in the places where there was abstinence-only sex education. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy. So does the availability of birth control. "Just don't do it" doesn't increase the age of first intercourse or out-of-wedlock sex. It just increases the chances of STD and pregnancy when it does happen.

Education reaches and helps many kids, but never imagine that classes alone will prevent instances like this one.

But ignorance will make us safer? Not on this planet.

 

[grydth]

Not exactly. What we had was an "explosion" of teen births in the places where there was abstinence-only sex education. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy. So does the availability of birth control. "Just don't do it" doesn't increase the age of first intercourse or out-of-wedlock sex. It just increases the chances of STD and pregnancy when it does happen.


But ignorance will make us safer? Not on this planet.

Actually, we do find numerous instances of behavior occurring even where people have had classes in it.

My point is not to encourage ignorance, but rather a caution to not over rely on a class as a universal solution.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I wasn't seriously suggesting that the two are equivalent. I was suggesting that the comments about gun-restriction advocates here are a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black. No one is more knee-jerk in their reactions than the NRA--they're the canonical example of a group that would oppose legislation they actually favour for fear that if it went through it might lead to legislation they oppose. To make as though gun control advocates are the only one staking an exaggerated position is outlandish.

It certainly is not.....I have found very few 'gun restriction' advocates who, in their heart, don't really seek complete abolition.......incrementalism is a tool, a means to an end.

As to the NRA, it has been the STAUNCHEST advocates of gun laws that actually WORK....PUT CRIMINALS IN PRISON WHO USE GUNS!

But yes, you're right......attacking the NRA is timely and trendy.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The two groups can work together to pass common sense legislation - witness the NRA and Senator Schumer agreeing on legislation to keep guns out of the hands of maniacs just after the Virginia Tech massacre.

Nothing gets done when the nation is completely polarized, as it was during the Bush-Clinton era. I recall Bill Clinton describing, wrongly as it turned out, his 1994 gun legislation as 'the camel's nose getting under the tent' - with rhetoric like that, it is understandable that the NRA would take the positions it has.

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" -Barry Goldwater

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not exactly. What we had was an "explosion" of teen births in the places where there was abstinence-only sex education. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy. So does the availability of birth control. "Just don't do it" doesn't increase the age of first intercourse or out-of-wedlock sex. It just increases the chances of STD and pregnancy when it does happen.


But ignorance will make us safer? Not on this planet.

Of course there's also been a commensurate 'explosion' of teen births in places where there was other sex education.

Let me remind you that the LARGEST unwed teen pregnancy problem is among black American teens, who have been under a BARRAGE of 'Use condoms and birth control' messages for decades now.......oh, and likewise STD and HIV rates.

The issue with teen sex and pregnancy is not really one of education......it's a sign of a larger cultural issue that neither abstinence education, or 'safer sex' will remotely deal with.




Not to say I disagree with your ultimate message, that ignorance does not make anyone safer....I agree wholeheartedly.....merely that the issue of teen sex is not a perfect example to deal with......as it's ultimately more complicated than that.