moving back in Wing CHun

[Ric Flair]

Hey all. I would like to know your opinions on a person stepping back during drills such as say Chi Sao.

I know some W.C groups are strongly against moving back.

I've also noticed some W.C people being forced back in Chi Sao and still somehow sidestep and counter quickly after moving slightly backwards.

Personally, I believe it is good to also learn how to move back and sideways during drills like Chi Sao, cuz that teaches you good footwork (like Chum Kiu) and conditions you to deal with a constantly moving attacker.

Kind of like learning how to effectively in-fight AND know distance fighting.

 

[Phil Elmore]

That would really depend on the purpose of the drill, would it not? Wing Chun was described to me as a "forward system" and the concept of forward pressure is a very important principle of the system. Wing Chun (at least as I learned it) also includes lateral footwork (side-stepping, etc.) and various counters to forward energy that involve allowing the person coming in to simply go right by as you strike them (and help them along the way).

Moving straight back is a very bad idea, in most cases (except as a last-ditch retreat) because an incoming strike or weapon can keep right on coming along the linear path it and you are traveling.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I once watched Yip Ching doing Chi Sao and if I remember correctly he was moving both backwards and forwards

 

[barriecusvein]

I once watched Yip Ching doing Chi Sao and if I remember correctly he was moving both backwards and forwards

we do a similar exersize, it makes you coordinate your whole body at once. whats the use of having awesome hands if you cant move your feet while using them? equally, brilliant footwork needs to be complimented by good hands. learning to put them together is (at least for me!) hard, but so very necessary.

 

[bcbernam777]

As sifu has taught me, we never, ever move back, which does not mean to say that we do not employ Foot work, Sifu also told me that if I thought I could just stand there I was stupid (he is actually a nice man )

The reasoning behind not going backward are two fold:

A) as has already been stated, correctly, Wing Chun is a forward pressure art, if you cannot maintian that forward pressure, then yu have not learnt the skills of Wing Chun. You will notice with the rare clips of WSL that there is no backward from him, but a continual forward pressure, penetrating the opponant, and striking deep beyond his confined area. Here the principle of Loy Lau Hoy Sung comes into play



Loy

Come Lau Receive Hoy Go Sung FollowReceive what comes send of or (follow) what retreats. Doesn't have the meaning that most people attach to it. The Essence of this concept is in the utilisation fo the confined area, together with th Sui Lum Tao energy, so that you are controling the game, and this principle utilised with these aspects will mean that yu will never, ever ahve to step back, but if you do not understand these fundamental ideas, concepts or have not developed the Sui Lum Tao energy, then you will not have achieved anything, and you will not be able to make it work.

2) The second is that going back will cause a wrong concept in the execution of the Wing Chun foot work (which is why so many people think that the foot work is too static and stiff [unworkable]). The ide3al of the foot work is outlined in the Chum Kui form, the fundamental problem that a Wing Chun practicioner has is "hw do I move and maintin my Sui Lum Tao energy?", if you you always see the Wing Chun footwork in terms of direction rather than position, then you will find yourself becoming lost. There is no backwards in Wing Chun, just as there is not forwards, and no sideways, there is simply an optimal position to be in, now you may say well thats the same as moving forwards, sideways etc. in Some regards that is true, however to simply say you are moving forwards is a fallacy to some degree, in a fight I might be proud of the fact that I have moved forwards, but if I cop a right hook in the temple, my boasting days are over, howevwer if I adopt the way of thinking of position rather than direction, i will find myself looking for more meaningful ways of transporting my Sui Lum Tao energy to THEM. I dont want to run, I want to utilise my SLT energy which can only be done from the perspectinve of "ultimate position"

 

[Ric Flair]

That would really depend on the purpose of the drill, would it not? Wing Chun was described to me as a "forward system" and the concept of forward pressure is a very important principle of the system. Wing Chun (at least as I learned it) also includes lateral footwork (side-stepping, etc.) and various counters to forward energy that involve allowing the person coming in to simply go right by as you strike them (and help them along the way).

Moving straight back is a very bad idea, in most cases (except as a last-ditch retreat) because an incoming strike or weapon can keep right on coming along the linear path it and you are traveling.

I've been told by my Sifu to "only move back or sidestep in order to move forward, never continue stepping back in a straight path since this just makes it easier on your aggressive attacker".
What do you think of this principle/guideline ?

 

[Phil Elmore]

That sounds exactly right.

 

[bcbernam777]

I've been told by my Sifu to "only move back or sidestep in order to move forward, never continue stepping back in a straight path since this just makes it easier on your aggressive attacker".
What do you think of this principle/guideline ?

A good principle, it is true, step around obstructions to move forward not to run away, good principle indeed

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

It is stupid to KEEP moving back, but sometimes retreating half a step is just what the doctor ordered. An attack will not keep traveling along the same line you are walking at: there is such a thing as commitment to an attack and loss of balance, specially with kicks.

Retreating is an excellent tactic to employ when the adversary is faster than you, more aggressive than you, stronger than you, or just better than you. If he concentrates too much on his attack, just retreat half a step so he will lose the sense of distance between the two of you: then take advantage of his confusion and advance attacking (or circle him and attack him, as you see fit).

 

[Kensai]

It is stupid to KEEP moving back, but sometimes retreating half a step is just what the doctor ordered. An attack will not keep traveling along the same line you are walking at: there is such a thing as commitment to an attack and loss of balance, specially with kicks.

Retreating is an excellent tactic to employ when the adversary is faster than you, more aggressive than you, stronger than you, or just better than you. If he concentrates too much on his attack, just retreat half a step so he will lose the sense of distance between the two of you: then take advantage of his confusion and advance attacking (or circle him and attack him, as you see fit).

I agree. You watch any ice hockey fight, and watch one of them get "suckered" in by a more experienced fighter. I think there's a distinction between forward energy, and retreating. They aren't mutually exclusive. Forward energy to me, means manipulating an opponents energy, but in Royal Navy fire-fighting terms, it also means "continuous aggressive attack". Retreating when pushing a bad position is just common sense. Just my tuppence.

 

[fightingfat]

You release pressure by stepping and turning. The principle encapsulated in Chum Kui.

 

[bcbernam777]

You release pressure by stepping and turning. The principle encapsulated in Chum Kui.

That is not the encapsulation of the Chum Kui. The purpose of the Chum Kui is to learn how to utilise the Sui Lum Tao energy even when your weight distribution has changed, the reason for the turning in Chum Kui is to learn how to transfer that SLT energy even when in movment and to use leverage force to manipulate and control your oponant.

 

[fightingfat]

I thought it was seeking the bridge?

Perhaps I should have said 'one of the principles...' Certainly it is where we are introduced to turning and releasing pressure; would you agree?

 

[monji112000]

Its not a simple question.

If for example he isn't very close and he throws a round kick. If i feel comfortable I will gan sao and step back at a angle, then follow with a shin kick, then B&A punch.

Very effective but what if its a hard round kick.. Gan sao isn't going to take that power so I would Qwan Gerk.

If I am over whlemed by a attack Straight back is very good. My foot that lands can take the impact and use it to push my body forward and attack. Since he is allready coming in its very painful when he is hit. Also it gives me some time and space.

Examples can be listed in many cases were moving back can be perfect or wrong. learn the theory.