Modern Arnis Umbrella Organization?

[Dieter]

Hi,

I only found this thread recently and maybe I am throwing back the discussion, but I want to comment on the following:

2. In regards to the 8th degrees in Modern Arnis from Filipines, some of them hadn't trained with Professor Presas for 20-30 years.

I have just been in Manila in Mach 2003 and have trained with all of the 8th Dans and even an 9th Dan from the Professor (Cristino Vasquez) and the above statement is not true. The Professor returned at least 6 times back to the Philippines, after Marcos left the Philippines.
Some of them have a lot of the newer techniques of the Professor. It is up to them, if they decide to teach them or not.
Many pof them have started Modern Arnis under Remy in the 60ies and never stopped training and teaching. They also have found their indiuvidual way of Modern Arnis and continued to develop it. So also in the Philippines there are a lot of different individual interpretations of Modern Arnis.
And I belive, we should pay them more respect and not only talk about the Delaney´s, Shea´s, Hartmann´s etc (put any name here, this is not a negative comment about these people) as the successors or the persons, who continue Professor´s legacy.
All of them are our seniors and all of them have a long Modern Arnis history.
Only Rodel Dagooc was in the states and taught and all I read of was highest respect for his abilities in Modern Arnis.

In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis headorganisation, which should be lead py the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters. Each of the organisations should stay INDEPENDENT regarding techniques gradings etc, but this would set a sign that we all are Modern Arnis and not just a bunch of egoists who only try to profile themselves. (I overexaggerated the last sentence to get the point clear. No personal offense intended).

Writing took me a little away from my first intention so I leave it to the moderators, to maybe split the thread and make a separate one out of this post, perhaps in the Modern Arnis section of the board.


Just a few cents from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[moromoro]

Hi Dieter

a fantastic post and reply.

In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis headorganisation, which should be lead py the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters.

yep, as an outsider i agree 100%, pEOPLE seem to want to forget that the arts are from the PHILIPPINES....

Many pof them have started Modern Arnis under Remy in the 60ies and never stopped training and teaching. They also have found their indiuvidual way of Modern Arnis and continued to develop it. So also in the Philippines there are a lot of different individual interpretations of Modern Arnis.

The Fact that many of these masters have been training for close to 40 years is something which we should respect.....

these masters can teach most people in the US a thing or two....
As they are seniors in Modern Arnis...


thanks

Terry

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Dieter
Hi,

1. I have just been in Manila in Mach 2003 and have trained with all of the 8th Dans and even an 9th Dan from the Professor (Cristino Vasquez)... And I belive, we should pay them more respect and not only talk about the Delaney´s, Shea´s, Hartmann´s etc (put any name here, this is not a negative comment about these people) as the successors or the persons, who continue Professor´s legacy.

2. In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis head organisation, which should be lead by the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters.

3. Each of the organisations should stay INDEPENDENT regarding techniques gradings etc, but this would set a sign that we all are Modern Arnis and not just a bunch of egoists who only try to profile themselves. (I overexaggerated the last sentence to get the point clear. No personal offense intended).

Just a few cents from Germany

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

Dieter,
Thanks for your comments.
1. Very few of us (myself included) have been to the PI so outside or Rodel, we don't know the seniors there. You have been there a number of times so you have met them.

2. I disagree for the above reason. I personally pledge allegience out of personal knowledge of the person and not because of of any other reason. This is not intended to be ANY kind of disrespect to the masters inthe PI but I don't know them. I knew Remy Presas.

3. The one organization theme and point 3 are in direct contradiction with each other. You can't have one leader with separate grading organizations without someone trying to pull the reins in. Won't and hasn't worked.

I look forward to hooking up with you at the Symposium and discussing this further. I do have a quick question for you: as you are on the grading board at the Symposium (and you have senior ranking directly from the seniors in the PI), will the ranks awarded be recognized as valid in the PI?

Yours,
Dan Anderson
PS - I have your books for you.

 

[Cruentus]

The Professor returned at least 6 times back to the Philippines, after Marcos left the Philippines.

Marcos left the PI in 1986, I believe. So in 20-30 years, the PI masters trained with Professor 6 times? This hardly allows them to stake claim on Professors research and developement within these years.

They also have found their indiuvidual way of Modern Arnis and continued to develop it. So also in the Philippines there are a lot of different individual interpretations of Modern Arnis.

I can agree with this, but then lets call it what it is. Your statement here points exactly to what I was talking about. Modern Arnis in the PI is a completely different animal then modern arnis in the US. At this point because of further developement of the art, Dieter Arnis, WMAA arnis, IMAF, INc. Arnis and (insert name of group here) arnis are all different animals at this point.

Modern arnis in the PI is not the same as Prof. Presas modern arnis as developed over the past 20-30 years. 6 lessons from professor is not going to change this fact.

Does this mean that Modern Arnis PI is no good? No! Different? YES! I, nor anybody else from the "american" orgs. intend to disrespect the masters from the PI. I have not said anything against Modern Arnis PI in terms of skill level, for I have not played with them enough to have an opinion regarding this. But, lets not BS each other and fool ourselves. Modern Arnis PI is NOT Modern Arnis US.

To argue that Modern Arnis PI is better then Modern Arnis US because "Professor was Filipino" is a ridicules and a borderline racist arguement as well (I'm not blaming you, Dieter, for making this arguement, but that seems to be the tone of certian posters here). The fact is, comparing the two is not comparing apples to apples. Until the PI masters get on the floor with US masters in a symposium type environment where we can all see for ourselves, or unless they all get in a pit and fight to see who wins, we'll never really know the answer to this. I believe that it will be a loooooong time before we ever know this answer, if ever.

In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis headorganisation, which should be lead py the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters.

I see your opinion and respect it. However, lets call this opinion what it is as well, and not BS each other here either. If the above were to occur, you would be considered the highest ranked non-filipino in the world, because you recieved your 7th in the PI recently. So, you have a serious motive for supporting this idea. THis idea works great for you, but not so great for everyone else.

What if I were to argue:

"IMAF, Inc. should be the leaders because they were successors of Professors org., and they were around within the last 10 years of research and developement of professors art."

or

"Tim hartman should be the leader because he was the highest ranked datu who was 'active' with professor at the timne of his passing."

or

"MARPPIO should lead because they were his Professors Kids"

or (insert any arguement here to fit the motive of any group)

You see, Dieter, these arguements are ridicules. They go no where because all they are is an attempt for one group to try to jocky for position, to be above everyone else. The thick motives behind these arguements make them invalid.

The fact is, Professor has been passed away for a long enough time now for the different factions to have further developed Modern Arnis as they see fit. All of the different factions now teach a different "form" of Modern Arnis, so it would be illogical to have 1 group lead, and expect that all the different "styles" out there become subservient to that one group.

Different groups can work together, for sure. The weaker groups will eventually fall off, or be merged with another group. But to expect everyone to throw away what they have been doing and working so hard to build, and admit subserviance to another group is not even an option at this point.

I respect what you are saying, but....I don't think so.

PAUL

 

[Dan Anderson]

Paul, I basically agree with yuo except for the ridiculous part. That means to hold something up to ridicule or is something to ridicule and I don't think Dieter's statements are anywhere near that. That he presents points we are in disagreement with, yes. That they are ridiculous, no. Over and out.

Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

I say that some of these arguements could be "held up to ridicule," given that there are clear motives behind them.

I don't think that Dieter should be "ridiculed" however!

 

[Dieter]

Reply to MoroMoro,

I just want to clarify one thing:

I have high respect also for all of the american students, who followed Remy in some cases for more than 20 years.
All of them have learned a great deal from him and I am sure all of them have something to offer as teacher and as practitioners.
Still, even though Remy was mainly in the US the last 25 years, it is a filipino martial art and I think we all could set a sign, if we would declare that we would be willing to work all together under one roof. Still as independent organisations, still withg or own gradin grequirements (everything else will not work) but it would be a strong sign to the martial arts world, that Modern Arnis is united, because we, all over the world, have two things in common: We are students of Professor Remy Presas and we acknowledge the origin of our art, the Philippines.

I can understand, that one has problems to accept a fellow practitioner or even a junor as the head opf a style, what is happening in the US right now. But I think we should have no problem, to accept the seniority of Masters, who have been in Modern Arnis since over 40 years.
In the same move, I think we should accept the 8th and 9th Dans of Modern Arnis in the Philippines as Grandmasters of Modern Arnis. I don´t see the point, if the are called Senior Masters until the end.
We in Germany have defined, with the knowledge and in agreement with the Professor, that 6th Dan is Junior Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th - 10th Dan is Grandmaster, because they deserve it.

This does not take anything away of the acomplishments of the american Modern Arnis Masters and and it also solves the problems, how the 5 and 6th Dans in America can achieve a higher level. There are higher Masters/Grandmasters in the Philippines who can promote the people who deserve it in a serious and honest way.

Again just a few thoughts, but I think valid ones.


Best regards from Germany



Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Cruentus]

Fair enough....

And I have stated my opinions regarding the issue.

:asian:

 

[Dieter]

Reply to Dan Anderson

This is not intended to be ANY kind of disrespect to the masters inthe PI but I don't know them. I knew Remy Presas.

This is exactly the point Dan. You knew him and he was your teacher and now he is goine and what now?
You turn to Ted Buot (spelling?) of Balintawak, because it was a core art of Modern Arnis - so why not go to the Masters that know the Modern Arnis of that time and also of later times - the 8th Dans.

3. The one organization theme and point 3 are in direct contradiction with each other. You can't have one leader with separate grading organizations without someone trying to pull the reins in. Won't and hasn't worked.

I can understan your hesitation, but I think it could work. If you would have the head organisation as the governing body. In Germany we have a Karate head association with different Styles within, all separate ands it works.
I think it is clearly a matter of will and not if is it possible.

I look forward to hooking up with you at the Symposium and discussing this further.

Me too. It wil be nice to talk face to face without the stupid keyboard in between.

I do have a quick question for you: as you are on the grading board at the Symposium (and you have senior ranking directly from the seniors in the PI), will the ranks awarded be recognized as valid in the PI?

Well, I don´t know but I would reckon yes.



Paul

If the above were to occur, you would be considered the highest ranked non-filipino in the world, because you recieved your 7th in the PI recently. So, you have a serious motive for supporting this idea. THis idea works great for you, but not so great for everyone else.

This is the fact, with or without this idea, but not the point.

I can see you hesitations and concern because of this- but I have no intentions in any direction to tell ANY of the american leaders of Modern Arnis what is right or wrong just because I am 7th Dan. I am based in Germany and will stay here. I will be happy to come to the US every once in a while if people want to see me there teaching, but I have no intentions of being the head of anything in Modern Arnis exept of here in Germany/Europe.
This is why I said, that the organisations should be independent, that I could not and should not tell Tim or Kelly or Randy how to handle thir internal affairs within their association and they would not interfere here with mine organisation. But it would show to the martial arts world, that there is a bond that unites us and that we are not fighting over things, we cannot, will not or don´t even want to change. See also David Hoffmans comments in the Modern Arnis Forum of rge WMAC and here.

We agree in many points, filipino Modern Arnis has a different taste than american Modern Arnis. Do they still have something to offer: sure.

But let me rephrase the beginning of the whole associational aspects of my mails and I will quote a great american: " I have a dream, ... that all Modern Arnis associations will ....."

You know what I mean. I think it is a dream worth thinking about and pleads belive me, that I don´t see me as the head of anything within it.
I have my position now here in Germany, I am respected in the US due to the respect for the title that Remy gave me and I hope after the symposium I will be respected for who I am, what I teach and for my Modern Arnis as such.

The head organisation would not change a thing there.

And please Paul, belive me, I am not a racist. I know that westerners can be excellent martial artist and that the color of the skin has nothing to to with abilities in martial arts - but it has something to o with the heritage of our Modern Arnis.


Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Cruentus]

I can see what you are saying. And, who knows what will happend in terms of uniting in the future?

I will say, that it is one thing to unite "with" someone, like modern arnisadors in the PI. It is another to be "under" someone. "With" allows people to be free to move in the direction they want. "Under" does not give them that freedom.

I don't think that US Modern Arnis orgs. and leaders have any problem with uniting "with" anyone. It is being "under" someone else, and having to throw away what they have been building based off of what their late teacher had asked of them; this is where the problem occurs.

Oh, and I don't think your racist; the arguement can be, though. I don't think you intend for the arguement to be racist either; it is just that there have been others on this board lately who have made arguements that are outright racist against non-filipinos. That is why I mentioned it. You have not done anything "racist" here that I have seen. So please don't take that comment as directed towards you.

 

[arnisador]

Thread split from here, renamed, and moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Dieter
Reply to Dan Anderson

This is exactly the point Dan. You knew him and he was your teacher and now he is gone and what now?

My what now was to officially come out with my own style curriculum of Modern Arnis. I am known in the karate field for developing my own slant to karate. I have done the same for Modern Arnis. This should be no surprise to anyone who knows me or my history. One thing I do want to state and that is my doing so is in no way, shape or form indicates superiority to anyone in the PI or elsewhere. The art within my art is now the art of my art. So i don't follow any of the Modern Arnis practitioners; you, Tim, Randi, Jeff, Kelly, C. Vasquez and so on.

You turn to Ted Buot of Balintawak, because it was a core art of Modern Arnis - so why not go to the Masters that know the Modern Arnis of that time and also of later times - the 8th Dans.

A) to study the roots of my teacher and B) Detroit is far closer to me than the PI. It is a decision of time and finances. I feel I can understand many of the things my teacher did by a study of his roots.

It wil be nice to talk face to face without the stupid keyboard in between.

Yes!

Yours,
Dan

 

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by PAUL
I can see what you are saying. And, who knows what will happend in terms of uniting in the future?

I will say, that it is one thing to unite "with" someone, like modern arnisadors in the PI. It is another to be "under" someone. "With" allows people to be free to move in the direction they want. "Under" does not give them that freedom.

I don't think that US Modern Arnis orgs. and leaders have any problem with uniting "with" anyone. It is being "under" someone else, and having to throw away what they have been building based off of what their late teacher had asked of them; this is where the problem occurs.

paul why dont you give it a chance. filipinos are not like japanese teachers who say you HAVE to do it this way or that way. many of them have there own style, they just have there own style UNDER REMY PRESAS. isnt that the same as here?

being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get). if someone is too proud to admit, that there is a person who is older, or senior to him, well i have to tell that person to come down off that rock before the people laugh him off. that is an arrogant thing, to not want somebody to be older. it sounds like somebody needs some humilty. my mom use to say, never think your the best, because allah will always make somebody better (smarter, stronger, faster, better fighter, etc) than you, and he will always make somebody better than him to.

for the purpose of uniting and building a stronger family, there MUST be a dakilang guro, there must be punong guro, there must be juniors and students. now, you can have a lot of little organizations-some good, some suck, or you can have a strong BIG organization, and nobody sucks because each part looks out for the other one and teaches each other. its why filipino men like to have lots of kids, to make a big, strong family that takes care of each other. right now, it looks like the tae kwon do family, all over the place, nobody knows each other, but they have something in common, and you got a bunch who thinks he is the grandmaster.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
paul why dont you give it a chance. filipinos are not like japanese teachers who say you HAVE to do it this way or that way. many of them have there own style, they just have there own style UNDER REMY PRESAS. isnt that the same as here?

being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get).

Kuntawman,

Excellent clarification! You have brought something to light that only a Filipino could have. I learned something today. This gives us westerners a bit of food for thought. Thanks!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cebu West]

There have been many excellent points made here and I do believe a unified Modern Arnis in some form would be good, however the main blockade to this is the fact that for 95% or more of American Modern Arnis practitioners whether old or new, students are not capable of getting to the PI to see, meet or train with the old masters. So distance is a key factor here. Dieter has been to the PI recently and I believe Kelly was also and Tim is going next summer. Some others have been there as well but very few. If some of these masters were available to us here in the USA and Europe I think it would be a much different story. Many would seek them out for training.
This did not happen with MARPPIO I think because of the timing involved and the turmoil that ensued following the Professor's passing. Just like anything else timing can be everything. Who knows, maybe in the near future as the leaders of the different organizations get to meet people from the PI, things will become closer. I don't think we disrespect these people, we just don't know them or have access to them.
If we had Star Trek tellaporters all are problems would be solved.

SAL :asian:

 

[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get). if someone is too proud to admit, that there is a person who is older, or senior to him, well i have to tell that person to come down off that rock before the people laugh him off. that is an arrogant thing, to not want somebody to be older.

To the thekuntawman:

Well said!!!

I think that we can learn a tremendous amount from the masters from the PI. I was greatly impressed by Rodel Dagooc when I trained with MARPPIO! Just for balance, just think about this... in the arts or science, we tend to appreciate the works of the innovator that have stood the test of time alot more than the last things that they were tinkering with.

 

[arnisador]

What does 'dakilang guro' mean?

I understand 'punong guro' to mean something like 'teacher of teachers'.

 

[Dieter]

paul why dont you give it a chance. filipinos are not like japanese teachers who say you HAVE to do it this way or that way. many of them have there own style, they just have there own style UNDER REMY PRESAS. isnt that the same as here?
Being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get)

Hi Kuntawman

This is EXACTLY what I ment by all the Modern Arnis organisations should join under an umbrella organisation headed by the "board of the elders" in the Philippines.
Guidance, assistance and the knowledge to belong to one strong group and not only to a splinter-organisation.
Especially you americans did learn so much from Remy, that you don´t need one of them around all the time. Technically you can stand on your own feet, als you do, but still it would be a sign in the right direction.
Make one or 2 seminar tours with one or two of them a year, where they visit different areas of the US and different association/groups and see what they have to offer. Not all of them are the same. Everyone has something different. Accept, what they want to share. The are not in for domiating anybody or any organisation. Give it a thought.
This concept would make it affordable and would be a step into unity.

Thanks Kuntawman to put it in better words that I could.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[moromoro]

hi dieter

There are higher Masters/Grandmasters in the Philippines who can promote the people who deserve it in a serious and honest way.

yes, i think that should be as a sign of respect that practitioners shold look to their seniors in the art.

if theres one thing people should take away from PILIPINO culture in learning eskrima, it is respect to our seniors. This is very evident in our culture.

thanks

terry

 

[dearnis.com]

Organizations....
A number of good points here. From an American point of view please remeber that most American martial artists are suspicious of organizations because they USUALLY exist to take money from you and offer very little in return. As the American Modern Arnis world shakes out and the groups consolidate people are choosing sides based, in part, on "what can this group do for me vs. what will it cost." Sad, perhaps, but taht is the way of American martial arts. (Look at taekwon-do for an examplel not knocking the art, just its politics).
Would a senior council be a bad thing...maybe not. I dont know. I suspect that Modern Arnis will evolve two distinct branches; an American version and a Phillipine version. This is not necessarily a bad thing; just the natural evolution of the art in a new environment.
As far as respect for the elders in Modern Arnis, or FMA generally, no one is deliberately trying to be disrespectful to anyone. As regards the seniors overseas, for the most part we don't know who they are. Is that bad; sure; they are our brothers in the art and we should know a bit about them, but as noted above, few people have the opportunity to travel and train.
Also, do not mistake typical American questioning for disrespect. If we don't know who someone is we will ask a LOT of blunt questions to find out. This might be part of the issue; I understand that confronting a person bluntly if quite rude in Filipino culture, where it is a given in the states.
Bottom line is that many of us are trying to preserve and develop the art as best we can, and it will take time for the best way to become apparent.
Chad