MMA vs TMA

[SENC-33]

Ah. Makes sense, I guess. So, is it fair to say that alcohol was a contributing factor?

Here's a question for the group at large. Do any RBSD guys here train drunk? I mean, when are we most likely to get into a fight? Answer: When we've had too much to drink and aren't behaving properly. So, how realistic can your training be if you're not schnockered at least a little?

Whatever works for you outside the safe confines of a controlled environment good on ya! Like I said it's not a pissing contest to me. I hope you never have to face a situation where you aren't aware of the assailants you can't see. It won't matter to your skull if they are drunk or sober.

 

[Steve]

Whatever works for you outside the safe confines of a controlled environment good on ya! Like I said it's not a pissing contest to me. I hope you never have to face a situation where you aren't aware of the assailants you can't see. It won't matter to your skull if they are drunk or sober.

Invisible assailants would be a true test, indeed. You train for that, too?

 

[ballen0351]

Here's a question for the group at large. Do any RBSD guys here train drunk? I mean, when are we most likely to get into a fight? Answer: When we've had too much to drink and aren't behaving properly. So, how realistic can your training be if you're not schnockered at least a little?

This is. A great point and why everyone's first line of self defense should be not to get schnockered or drunk in public in the first place. You can go out have a few beers or drinks in moderation but stay sober enough so you can avoid fighting in the first place. I never understood why people find the need to get plastered in public. You put yourself at such a greater risk for all kinds of problems

 

[Steve]

This is. A great point and why everyone's first line of self defense should be not to get schnockered or drunk in public in the first place. You can go out have a few beers or drinks in moderation but stay sober enough so you can avoid fighting in the first place. I never understood why people find the need to get plastered in public. You put yourself at such a greater risk for all kinds of problems

I agree. I think that the most practical self defense techniques one can learn involve being a good communicator, de-escalation techniques and situational awareness. Those skills along with some common sense things like, don't get sloppy drunk with people you don't know and trust, don't be a jerk, don't flash large amounts of money in a bar, don't pick up prostitutes, don't buy drugs from dealers in dark alleys, don't take on invisible assailants (that one's for you, senc-33 ) just seem like practical self defense to me.

But, I'm not an expert, so take it for what it's worth. I do know how to put you to sleep in a number of ways, though.

 

[Kframe]

You think being on top of me is really a dominant position? In a real life situation where there is no ring, a ref or points and you do happen to get me to the ground and on top of me you will likely go into ground and pound mode. Yes my movement will be somewhat limited but I CAN get a throat strike no problem (we both can). Where you choose to strike is up to you obviously but I will cover long enough to get the small window I need.

Ok I have to jump in on Hanzou's side here. Sorry that is not correct at all. I have done BJJ in my mma class and there is no way you will ever reach my throat. Secondly and this is important, reaching up to strike my eyes or throat or anything else for that matter is 2 things. 1. it is the single most foolish thing you can do and here is the reason. 2 its a gift to the person on top. Go a head reach that hand or 2 up there, makes it REALLY easy to arm bar you. Its a gift to the grappler.. NEVER reach up like that in a ground fight... I was taught the T-rex for a reason..

I grow tired of reading and hearing in person from tma artists how they don't need ground grappling they will just use dirty tricks. Sorry that is patently incorrect. THEY DO NOT WORK WITH A SEASONED GRAPPLER!! Sadly the proof I need is UFC 1-4. Eye gouging and biting and sack grabbing and hair pulling and small joint manipulation were all allowed. NOONE who tried those tactics won. Not one single TMAist won. It was the grapplers.

Look, no one here is disputing that a tma is a great thing for self defense on the streets were most of the attackers you will likely face are untrained to poorly trained. Most combat sport athletes that should give TMA worries and nightmares is to busy training for there competition goals and are generally good people. Getting into fights and pissing contests in bars and on the streets will screw up there dreams. Permanently. Especially for those with UFC dreams, as they do not tolerate criminals.

For the average TMA they don't need to worry about Rouge BJJ Blackbelts roaming the streets looting and pillaging.(unless they are close to a Loyd Irving training center then watch out) Though getting tackled and put into a crappy mount and pounded. I feel that EVERY Single TMA needs to learn basic mount escape and variations such as the GNP mount escape, and escapes from side and half guard. Plus defenses from the basic joint attacks. They need to at least get experience being on the ground in the bottom position. The last thing a non grounder needs to do is panic and start flailing away. That will sap your energy and you'll be unable to fend off anything.

In this day and age there is no excuse to not atleast know these very basic ground solutions. NO need to go and simultaneously train to black belt in bjj just to survive a street ground encounter. It doesn't take that much training time to be prepared for ground street encounters...

Cant believe im siding with Hanzou... You know what no im not.. He has no respect for any other martial arts. The Gracies are big into respect, and they are proponents of respecting all people and styles. You need to learn respect and stop insulting traditional artists. You claim to believe in BJJ and the Jiu Jitsu lifestyle, then actually live it and show respect and deciency and be friendly and open to other styles, not bashing them.

 

[Hanzou]

Cant believe im siding with Hanzou... You know what no im not.. He has no respect for any other martial arts. The Gracies are big into respect, and they are proponents of respecting all people and styles. You need to learn respect and stop insulting traditional artists. You claim to believe in BJJ and the Jiu Jitsu lifestyle, then actually live it and show respect and deciency and be friendly and open to other styles, not bashing them.

Its pretty hard to respect certain TMA styles when they teach their students that they can escape a ground and pound by a seasoned grappler with a throat punch or an eye gouge. I just saw some Ninja guy teach a student some silly eye gouge as a counter to a grappler. I just can't take them seriously because its like they're living in fantasy land.

The most hilarious thing about all of this is that the escapes to that situation are easy to find, and there's multiple ways to do it. The fact that TMAs aren't teaching simple Bjj escapes just shows that they have their heads in the sand.

Beyond that, you can train in whatever you like. I respect everyone's right to choose the art that's best for them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Its pretty hard to respect certain TMA styles when ...

Sometime if we have to respect all MA styles, we won't be able to have any deep level discussion. In the past, I have criticized both my major TCMA styles and my minor TCMA styles such as:

- WC Bong Shou expose elbow and chest,
- Bagua circle walking cross legs for swept,
- Yang Taiji has hand moves but not enough leg move such as sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, ...,
- longfist system form has too much abstraction,
- SC depends too much on sleeve hold,
- ...

If we want our style to "evolve", we have to first detect the weakness of our style. No matter what style that we train, we should not be bounded by our styles. We should have "no style boundary" in mind. The moment that we say, "My style doesn't do this." or "This is against my style principle", we have stopped ourselves the opportunity to grow.

 

[K-man]

Regarding the posts/pics that Steve posted...I have to concur...being the mount, especially the high mount, well...there's no other way to say it other than it sucks!!! LOL! It sucks enough in the regular mount, but once they get under your arms...hopefully luck is on your side or you're capable of shrimping, if possible, to change his position on you.

If the guy is sitting high, ie: upright, he'll easily be able to rain down strikes. The bottom guy most likely will not be able to reach the face, unless the top guy leans in...then you might have a chance to target the eyes, throat, etc.

I'm by far, not an expert grappler, but IMHO, I would say the best chance to target the eyes, throat, etc, would be when the grappler is making his initial contact. Not saying its impossible once you're on the ground, but if the guy knows what he's doing, it's not going to be easy.

Will every person in the street that you face, be an expert grappler? Probably not. However, due to the fact that Wrestling is taught in a lot of schools and colleges, in addition to MMA being popular, not to mention those 'wanna-bes' that would rather watch youtube and mimic what they see on the clip, in the backyard with their friends, it is possible that you could run into someone with some grappling experience, limited as it may be.

To be fair we are ranging between professional fighters, highly trained martial artists, not so highly trained martial artists and the Joe Average street thug who might be a seasoned brawler or an untrained guy with too much grog in him.

Now as was said 50 pages back, it is virtually impossible to compare TMAs with MMAs. For 40 pages Hanzou has been bitching because TMAs don't compete in competition.

But let's look at this last little bit of grappling. Escaping the mount is standard fare for basic grapplers. I was taught not to allow the guy on top to get the high mount in the first place. To use that as an example of why someone can't grab your throat or gouge your eyes is like me saying that you are not going to be able to do much when I have you in a good rear naked choke. The fight was really over before that time. Having said that, it is still possible for a trained person to escape a rear naked choke and it is still possible for a trained person to escape a high mount.

So let's start comparing apples with apples. It makes no sense to compare beginners with advanced grapplers or vice versa. As I said from page one, you will never be able to compare MMA with TMA but if you are reasonably trained in either discipline both are practical for self defence. But don't for one moment believe TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

But don't for one moment believe TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills.
:asian:

Umm sorry but no. In my quest to find the tma for me after my mma closed, I visited nearly 20 of them in a 20 minute drive and NONE of them did any form of ground grappling. If its not being practiced at least once or twice a week, then its not seriously being taught and not benefiting then its not on the syllabus.

Were in goju or shorin or Ishhin ryu is the ground fighting syllabus? Were in TKD? (ATA has a ground grappling course. No clue how crappy or not it is) Were in Muay thai?

Sorry Unless it is consistently taught every week for more then 10 minutes at a time it is not really being trained.

Im not sure how you can make that statement with a straight face and actually mean it. IF tma had a valid ground syllabus then this whole thread would never exist...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe when K-man said, "TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills." He means TMA may have "stand up grappling" but don't have "ground skill grappling". I have trained TCMA all my life and there is no shame for me to admit that TCMA has no ground skill. TCMA has the ground skill that when you take your opponent down, you get into full mount or side mount as shown in the following clip.

But if a TCMA guy was thrown down and be on the bottom, the TCMA guy will have no skill to reverse the bottom position back to the top position. This is why to be able to obtain that skill from BJJ is always a good idea.

 

[Hanzou]

Sometime if we have to respect all MA styles, we won't be able to have any deep level discussion. In the past, I have criticized both my major TCMA styles and my minor TCMA styles such as:

- WC Bong Shou expose elbow and chest,
- Bagua circle walking cross legs for swept,
- Yang Taiji has hand moves but not enough leg move such as sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, ...,
- longfist system form has too much abstraction,
- SC depends too much on sleeve hold,
- ...

If we want our style to "evolve", we have to first detect the weakness of our style. No matter what style that we train, we should not be bounded by our styles. We should have "no style boundary" in mind. The moment that we say, "My style doesn't do this." or "This is against my style principle", we have stopped ourselves the opportunity to grow.

Of course. The thing is this though; Most people have a general idea on how to do stand up. Let's face it, if you're into martial arts, you've probably done karate, shadow boxing, or something else. Throwing a punch is pretty simple. Throwing a kick is fairly simple. In short, the average person knows how to do average stand up. Like that thug and that meter cop who was trained in Muay Thai. The untrained thug hung with him and they were just trading blows because boxing is like 4 punches and some fancy footwork. How hard is that to emulate with a VCR and a punching bag?

You just can't say the same about ground fighting. Anyone who has rolled with a legit Bjj purple, brown, or black belt can attest to that. Some of the crazy counters that I've heard like a Karate chop to the neck to stop a takedown, or a throat punch to stop the ground and pound back that up. Its like Royce Grace and the first UFCs all over again. If you're not prepared for it, it sucks. If you are prepared for it, it sucks for THEM.

What's sad is that its not like the BJJ escapes are impossible to find. They're right there on youtube for you to check out and incorporate. Like this Ninjutsu school for example that incorporated a Bjj mount counter;

Simple.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you're not prepared for it, it sucks. If you are prepared for it, it sucks for THEM.

Many years ago, I had very cross mind. I would let BJJ to be effective on the ground, and I only care about the effectiveness of the stand up grappling. Today, I may be too old to get a BJJ black belt (what's the usage to obtain a PhD degree after you have retired and no longer looking for job?), but I encourage all my guys to cross trained the ground skill. As you have said, it's always be better to prepare for yourself.

 

[ballen0351]

Umm sorry but no. In my quest to find the tma for me after my mma closed, I visited nearly 20 of them in a 20 minute drive and NONE of them did any form of ground grappling. If its not being practiced at least once or twice a week, then its not seriously being taught and not benefiting then its not on the syllabus.

Were in goju or shorin or Ishhin ryu is the ground fighting syllabus? Were in TKD? (ATA has a ground grappling course. No clue how crappy or not it is) Were in Muay thai?

Sorry Unless it is consistently taught every week for more then 10 minutes at a time it is not really being trained.

Im not sure how you can make that statement with a straight face and actually mean it. IF tma had a valid ground syllabus then this whole thread would never exist...

I'm not sure how you can decide by visiting a school for one class what they do and don't teach. If your just cheking our a school then your a beginner in that art but you now claim that you know everything that's taught in Goju/Isshin ryu/ect to make that blanket statement. There are many things we don't teach in beginners classes or even intermediate classes so how do you know what's taught?

 

[Kframe]

Please inform me Ballen. If it is taught why save it for high ranking belts? That should be in the syllabus from the beginning not at the end were it does no good. I have done more then enough internet research and talking with various karateka in real life to make my assertion..

 

[RTKDCMB]

No. Sorry. This is wrong. You will not be able to reach my throat under high mount, and further, if you try I'd likely be able to break your wrist without compromising my position at all. In fact, it is very likely that without a lot of experience in that position, you will panic when you realize how difficult it is to breathe and how limited your movement really is. I see it all the time. You really don't know how sucky that position is until you've got someone competent doing it to you.

To help show what I mean, this is high mount:
View attachment 18395

There are a number of things that are possible from this position; From the picture it is clear that the mounted man has both arms free so any punches that can be rained down can also be blocked with the forearms (often in the UFC you will see someone raining down punches and the only defence you will see is the flailing of arms), the grappler's wrist can also be grabbed and broken. After grabbing the wrist he can use the legs to topple him over and escape. If the mounted guy wants to strike for the face he would have to bring it closer down (striking there from that position would be unwise) by either grabbing the clothes or the arm and then striking. A bear hand fist or middle knuckle strike to the side of the neck, the temple or the facial nerve under the cheek bone would not take much power to be effective. There is also the possibility of kicking to the back of the head with the shin,instep or ball of the foot or getting the leg around the front and pulling him backwards or kneeing in the kidneys. Nothing from this position would be ideal but there are manyt things that could work. That being said, if you are put in this position then something has already gone terribly wrong.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are a number of things that are possible from this position; From the picture it is clear that the mounted man has both arms free so any punches that can be rained down can also be blocked with the forearms (often in the UFC you will see someone raining down punches and the only defence you will see is the flailing of arms), the grappler's wrist can also be grabbed and broken. After grabbing the wrist he can use the legs to topple him over and escape. If the mounted guy wants to strike for the face he would have to bring it closer down (striking there from that position would be unwise) by either grabbing the clothes or the arm and then striking. A bear hand fist or middle knuckle strike to the side of the neck, the temple or the facial nerve under the cheek bone would not take much power to be effective. There is also the possibility of kicking to the back of the head with the shin,instep or ball of the foot or getting the leg around the front and pulling him backwards or kneeing in the kidneys. Nothing from this position would be ideal but there are manyt things that could work. That being said, if you are put in this position then something has already gone terribly wrong.

Wow. Just about everything in that paragraph is wrong except for the last two sentences.

Seriously. I've got respect for just about all martial arts and I totally understand those who advocate avoiding ground fighting as much as possible. However if you are going to opine on how to do ground fighting then you should get some experience in it first.

 

[K-man]

Why don't you just do this;

I did .. with Bas earlier this year. Awesome!

 

[K-man]

Ok I have to jump in on Hanzou's side here. Sorry that is not correct at all. I have done BJJ in my mma class and there is no way you will ever reach my throat. Secondly and this is important, reaching up to strike my eyes or throat or anything else for that matter is 2 things. 1. it is the single most foolish thing you can do and here is the reason. 2 its a gift to the person on top. Go a head reach that hand or 2 up there, makes it REALLY easy to arm bar you. Its a gift to the grappler.. NEVER reach up like that in a ground fight... I was taught the T-rex for a reason..

Certainly just reaching up to eye gouge by itself normally isn't going to be the first option but assuming you have basic grappling skills the option may well arise depending on the skills of the person you are fighting. I wouldn't be in any way concerned if I ended up on my back on the ground. Basic Krav teaches that for starters. Sure against highly skilled grapplers, different story, but what are the chances of me being in that position to start with?

I grow tired of reading and hearing in person from tma artists how they don't need ground grappling they will just use dirty tricks. Sorry that is patently incorrect. THEY DO NOT WORK WITH A SEASONED GRAPPLER!! Sadly the proof I need is UFC 1-4. Eye gouging and biting and sack grabbing and hair pulling and small joint manipulation were all allowed. NOONE who tried those tactics won. Not one single TMAist won. It was the grapplers.

I'm sorry I have never heard that and I do teach basic ground grappling. But sorry, I have to question. Who were the TMAs competing in UFC?

Look, no one here is disputing that a tma is a great thing for self defense on the streets were most of the attackers you will likely face are untrained to poorly trained. Most combat sport athletes that should give TMA worries and nightmares is to busy training for there competition goals and are generally good people. Getting into fights and pissing contests in bars and on the streets will screw up there dreams. Permanently. Especially for those with UFC dreams, as they do not tolerate criminals.

For the average TMA they don't need to worry about Rouge BJJ Blackbelts roaming the streets looting and pillaging.(unless they are close to a Loyd Irving training center then watch out) Though getting tackled and put into a crappy mount and pounded. I feel that EVERY Single TMA needs to learn basic mount escape and variations such as the GNP mount escape, and escapes from side and half guard. Plus defenses from the basic joint attacks. They need to at least get experience being on the ground in the bottom position. The last thing a non grounder needs to do is panic and start flailing away. That will sap your energy and you'll be unable to fend off anything.

Exactly right, but I do teach basic grappling skills because TMA is very similar to MMA, at least in karate. Every lock and arm bar I have learned in aikido is in our karate kata so I teach then and the reversals (also how to stop the reversals in many instances). So never assume TMAs don't train that way ... or maybe, yes assume they don't but be prepared for a surprise if you come across one of my guys.

In this day and age there is no excuse to not atleast know these very basic ground solutions. NO need to go and simultaneously train to black belt in bjj just to survive a street ground encounter. It doesn't take that much training time to be prepared for ground street encounters...

Agree 100% but it should be part of your regular training if your instructor is properly trained.

Cant believe im siding with Hanzou... You know what no im not.. He has no respect for any other martial arts. The Gracies are big into respect, and they are proponents of respecting all people and styles. You need to learn respect and stop insulting traditional artists. You claim to believe in BJJ and the Jiu Jitsu lifestyle, then actually live it and show respect and deciency and be friendly and open to other styles, not bashing them.

No, don't side with Hanzou .. the few good points he makes are buried too deep in copious amounts of brown, smelly stuff excreted by male cattle.

 

[K-man]

Umm sorry but no. In my quest to find the tma for me after my mma closed, I visited nearly 20 of them in a 20 minute drive and NONE of them did any form of ground grappling. If its not being practiced at least once or twice a week, then its not seriously being taught and not benefiting then its not on the syllabus.

Were in goju or shorin or Ishhin ryu is the ground fighting syllabus? Were in TKD? (ATA has a ground grappling course. No clue how crappy or not it is) Were in Muay thai?

Sorry Unless it is consistently taught every week for more then 10 minutes at a time it is not really being trained.

Im not sure how you can make that statement with a straight face and actually mean it. IF tma had a valid ground syllabus then this whole thread would never exist...

Once again, this is about as valid as Hanzou's assertions. I don't practise it twice a week but we still practise regularly. Whether you consider that sufficient is fine by me. I don't advocate people go to the ground and we spend a lot of time training skills to develop centre so it is less likely we will go to the ground. Even in the KM training there isn't that much grappling training so why should we?

if you can find 20 TMA schools within 20 minutes of where you live then you are indeed fortunate. I doubt there are many more than that in the whole of Australia! When I refer to TMA karate I don't include any that I call 'schoolboy karate'. That is not denigrating that training but it is the type of karate taken into the schools in the early 20th century and taught to Westerners post WWII. (My comment only pertains to karate and no other style of TMA.)

As to the syllabus, there is no standardised syllabus in TMA karate that I have seen. I have my own syllabus and there are certain criteria for grading but that is up to the individual school. So I can say what I say with a straight face and that is why I take such offence against the crap being thrown at TMA. I agree with a lot of the criticism levelled at many schools, but I doubt I would classify many of them, particularly karate, as TMA. But having said that, it is up to the individual to declare what they teach or what they are taught to assess whether they really are TMA and if the are TMA they can surely say whether their training is complete or deficient. I'm the first to admit that the karate I used to train, and which I thought was traditional because that's what I was told, was not what it claimed to be. Hence I began cross training. What I now teach is far more comprehensive and certainly much more hands on.

But this thread had gone 40 pages past its use by date because of Hanzou's position on competition. Most of my students are on the wrong side of fifty. They have no desire to compete and if they did they are welcome to train at a school that prepares people for competition.

 

[K-man]

I believe when K-man said, "TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills." He means TMA may have "stand up grappling" but don't have "ground skill grappling". I have trained TCMA all my life and there is no shame for me to admit that TCMA has no ground skill. TCMA has the ground skill that when you take your opponent down, you get into full mount or side mount as shown in the following clip.

But if a TCMA guy was thrown down and be on the bottom, the TCMA guy will have no skill to reverse the bottom position back to the top position. This is why to be able to obtain that skill from BJJ is always a good idea.

Sorry, if I said "TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills" I made a mistake in my post. I teach basic grappling skills to a far higher level than what was shown in this clip. The kata contain many takedowns and it is quite possible that you might end up on the ground too. So as I said in my previous post, every individual has to make the call as to whether your training is sufficient by itself to meet most scenarios. You say you haven't the training to cope with being on the bottom on the ground and that is fine. I believe against untrained people and your average martial artist I do have the necessary skills as I have trained that sort of thing for many years.