dancingalone
Grandmaster
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If I could do away with titles like master or grandmaster, I would. Stick with the Korean honorifics for teacher or instructor and leave it at that.
Master and Grandmaster titles
- Thread starter andyjeffries
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I've always been fascinated by the fact that Japanese/Okinawan Arts have ingrained "sensei" into the Western lexicon, but Koreans have not done that with Sa Boem. I'd like to see the Korean terms used instead of "master," also.
My first instructor, a Korean man, went by "Mr." or SBN. Even his business cards read, "Mr. Yun Kil Kim, Master Instructor." I have my students call me "Mr. Jensen," or SBN, as well.
My late grandmaster, on the other hand, was very formal (as is his wife, who now runs the organization after his death). In the 10 years I've known them, neither of them have ever called me by my first name (always by my title of either "Mr." or "Master"), even in causal conversation.
I'm formal with others when I meet them. I'll call someone "Master" (if the title applies) & introduce myself as "Tom." More than once, the person has said, "call me by my first name." Grandmaster is usually always grandmaster to me (on or off the mat) unless I've known them for many years, or outside of class. (Of those, there are only two people. One I grew up with, and the other is a man I trained with more than 30 years ago & have always called by his first name).
Senior Grandmaster, duh...
Senior Grandmaster, duh...
Yah, it goes: Master, Grandmaster, Senior Grandmaster, Supreme Grandmaster, Imperial Grandmaster, Senior Supreme Imperial Grandmaster, and then Senior Supreme Imperial Grandmaster with a Cherry On Top. But the Cherry is usually only awarded posthumously.
Earl Weiss
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Head of Gym - Kwan Jang
Head of system term used by General Choi (and also Lee Won Kuk I believe) Chong Shee Jah (Phonetic Spelling also followed by Honorific "Nim")
Head of system term used by General Choi (and also Lee Won Kuk I believe) Chong Shee Jah (Phonetic Spelling also followed by Honorific "Nim")
Earl Weiss
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Well, long ago I ascended to Super Duper Omnipotent Eternal Intergalactic Supreme Great Grandmaster. My next level will add Imperial with the cherry.
Spookey
Purple Belt
Here are my thoughts, combined with some research of times past and present...
First, we are taught that improvement never ceases so use of the term master (in Asian culture) doesn't mean "one who has mastered a subject", but rather more similar to a master craftsman.
Students: (Jeja)
These are often referred to as pupils, or Jeja in Korean. They are generally less developed practitioners who are in the newer stages of martial arts training.
Apprentices: (Senior Students)
Much like a disciple, these persons are students who have grown beyond training as a hobby, and are devoted to learning the master's craft.
Journeyman: (Assistant Instructor / Boo Sabum or Jo Kyu Nim, etc.)
Having learned the basics of the master's craft they are fundamentally strong in the basics, yet still continue to gain wisdom on the finer points of the master's ideals. They may be tasked by the master craftsman to teach some portions of the fundamentals to a newer apprentice.
Master: (Master Craftsman / Senior Teacher / Sabum)
Not only has this person developed a high level of skill in the craft of reference, but they have also begun to develop a strong methodology for passing this on to others.
Senior Master: (Headmaster / Grandmaster / Kwan Jang)
A leader in his field, one who continues to progress, and who even other master craftsmen admire and consult. Not only is his level of experience great, but also his actions to pass the craft on to other generations. He is truly the teacher of teacher!
Traditionally, as relates to Asian martial arts, the issuance of rank and title are two separate appointments. While there may be a minimum rank standard, titles are not one in the same. For instance, no matter how long one studies a subject, they are not a teacher until they take on a students. Based on this logic, a martial scholar would not become a teacher until he took on teaching duties, and would not be a master until he had produced a quality student. Once that student reached a level of maturity and took on students of his own, then his teacher would be a master (one who has taught teachers) and yet a Grandmaster, one who has taught masters.
Plain and simple, if you don't have children, don't plan on being a "Father", and if your children never have children don't expect to be called Grand Father.
At the end of the day, to much emphasis is placed on titles, while not enough emphasis is placed on being of service to others. A master is not to be served, unless he is the master of slaves. A true master is one who provides infinite service to the development of others!
TAEKWON!
First, we are taught that improvement never ceases so use of the term master (in Asian culture) doesn't mean "one who has mastered a subject", but rather more similar to a master craftsman.
Students: (Jeja)
These are often referred to as pupils, or Jeja in Korean. They are generally less developed practitioners who are in the newer stages of martial arts training.
Apprentices: (Senior Students)
Much like a disciple, these persons are students who have grown beyond training as a hobby, and are devoted to learning the master's craft.
Journeyman: (Assistant Instructor / Boo Sabum or Jo Kyu Nim, etc.)
Having learned the basics of the master's craft they are fundamentally strong in the basics, yet still continue to gain wisdom on the finer points of the master's ideals. They may be tasked by the master craftsman to teach some portions of the fundamentals to a newer apprentice.
Master: (Master Craftsman / Senior Teacher / Sabum)
Not only has this person developed a high level of skill in the craft of reference, but they have also begun to develop a strong methodology for passing this on to others.
Senior Master: (Headmaster / Grandmaster / Kwan Jang)
A leader in his field, one who continues to progress, and who even other master craftsmen admire and consult. Not only is his level of experience great, but also his actions to pass the craft on to other generations. He is truly the teacher of teacher!
Traditionally, as relates to Asian martial arts, the issuance of rank and title are two separate appointments. While there may be a minimum rank standard, titles are not one in the same. For instance, no matter how long one studies a subject, they are not a teacher until they take on a students. Based on this logic, a martial scholar would not become a teacher until he took on teaching duties, and would not be a master until he had produced a quality student. Once that student reached a level of maturity and took on students of his own, then his teacher would be a master (one who has taught teachers) and yet a Grandmaster, one who has taught masters.
Plain and simple, if you don't have children, don't plan on being a "Father", and if your children never have children don't expect to be called Grand Father.
At the end of the day, to much emphasis is placed on titles, while not enough emphasis is placed on being of service to others. A master is not to be served, unless he is the master of slaves. A true master is one who provides infinite service to the development of others!
TAEKWON!
Reading this thread, I see that most of you are speaking of TKD. I know very little of this system as I specialize in Japanese arts. Speaking from a Japanese standpoint, You become ELIGIBLE to become a Master at 5th Dan, once rank is reached you take master "classes" . Grandmaster is usually 10th Dan, but occasionally 9th Dan.
Just a wild guess here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is probably because this is the TKD forum...
That's painting an awful lot of different arts with a phenomenally wide brush...
"Master" and "Grandmaster" are not terms typically used in the Japanese arts I'm familiar with. Can you explain which arts you are speaking of and which Japanese terms you are translating as "Master" and "Grandmaster"?
Earl Weiss
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I agree, I don't know any 'Grandmasters' in karate and I know people that are 6th, 7th and 8th Dans and a bit beyond.
Cirdan
Senior Master
I don`t know any grandmasters in Karate either, however Ju Jitsu does use titles such as Renshi, Shian, Kyoshi and Hanshi. I don`t know their exact meaning however.
I found a forum and replied to it. I didn't realize that it was a TKD forum... and yes I was being very general. As mentioned jujitsu uses the title. As well as Aikido and ninjutsu.
So the brush gets a little less broad, but it's still too broad. The levels you mentioned apply to SOME jujutsu (if it's spelled jujitsu, I'd question its autheticity...) systems, SOME Aikido systems and SOME Ninjutsu systems.
I'll repeat my earlier question - what Japanese terms are you translating as "master" and "grandmaster'?
I've seen "Shihan" translated as "master instructor", although usually not as just "master." (I've also seen it translated as "senior instructor.") Different organizations have different rules for who is considered a Shihan. There are no universal rules matching the title to a given dan rank.
I'm not sure what term you would translate as "grandmaster." I've seen people use the term to refer to the soke of a system, but I don't think that's an accurate translation. Even so, it certainly wouldn't map to a dan ranking.
I'm not a spelling major... I'm also not Japanese. I don't speak Japanese. Only the terms I was taught. All I can do is pass on what I was taught. I know for a fact the validity of my ninjutsu school, however the other two are American schools and I can only go from my experiences there and what I was told by the instructors.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Um, I mentioned the titles Renshi, Shihan, Kyoshi and Hanshi which does not neccesarily translate to master or grandmaster.
To be more specific our Ju Jitsu club is a member of the World Kobudo Federation which issues the titles and certificates.
As for the spelling (how many variations is there, 20? 30?) with my extremely limited knowledge of Japanese I`d rather use Ju Jutsu than Ju Jitsu but it is not a big deal and I have never bothered to discuss it with my teachers at all. Anyone who question our club based on the name of the art are welcome to drop by anytime.
No one ( to my knowledge) is questioning you sir. I believe the insults from big bad Chris were meant for me... I think it's funny... internet tough guy.. they're all over. As for your post Cirdan, I don't know the literal translation either. And I'm certainly not going to judge a school based on its spelling...
'Big bad Chris'? Oh dear, I think before you decide he's getting at you and you thinking he's some sort of internet tough guy, you might want to read what he posts a lot more than you have. I wouldn't take them as insults either, he's telling you from his considerable knowledge and experience how things are. Disagree by all means but don't assume you know better....because you don't actually.
spelling...well, yes it is important if it changes the sense of what you are trying to say and if it shows that something is not legitimate.
