Martial arts testing and society today

[Gerry Seymour]

well the making money part is career success, we all have to do things get good at things because it does or will pay the bills.

if you have an ambition, to say play guitar and your willing to put the effort in to fulfil that ambition, that's good, but if you don't enjoy the practise then you should pack it in.and do something you do enjoy hoping you get to like it after a decade of effort is a big risk, when you could have spent that time doing something you do enjoy
but there is the distinction between working for your own ambitions and working for someone else's .

Ah, but I never enjoy solo practice - even for things I enjoy being good at (and I'm not sure something like group guitar lessons would be an improvement, if that's even a thing). Practicing solo simply isn't in my nature, so it's something I only do with an eye to a goal as motivation. This even applies to my MA practice. I don't really enjoy the practice, unless it's as part of a group thing. I do it because I enjoy the results. That has been true of much of my MA training, even when training with others. Often, it's just no damned fun in the moment, but very satisfying when it's over.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well the making money part is career success, we all have to do things get good at things because it does or will pay the bills.

Yes, and that was the point of my question. It seemed (maybe just my reading of it) that you were saying you should only do something if it makes you more money, is fun, or is a moral duty. And that sticking to something you don't enjoy doesn't fit that. But to me, it actually furthers two of those three. It could be argued that developing the ability to persevere (psych research appears to show this is an actual skill, as is willpower) is also key to the third. So, helping kids learn perseverance would seem key to their ability to build skill to be able to enjoy some activities, and would definitely support their future ability to succeed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is so much to learn when you are only five, persevering at something you don't like perhaps shouldn't be one of them. Later on then yes of course but young children, who have short attention spans definitely not. If children have to be made to do something then they will learn only negative things.

I think maybe you and I are viewing "don't like" from different angles. There's "don't wanna do it right now!", and there's "I don't like doing this thing!" If it's a "right now" thing, that's what they (at that age) sometimes need to persevere through. If it's something they actually don't like doing at all, that's something they often don't need to be doing (except where it's something like a learning activity, but many of those can be made into a fun exercise for kids). At that age, they probably only need "some" exposure to perseverance, and not a constant stream of it.

 

[Hyoho]

" it was for them that the grading systems were devised "
This is so important I can't repeat enough.
My question then to you Hyoho, as westerners, are we incorrect in using the belt ranks at all? Would it not be better to abandon them all together? We are in essence putting the round peg in a square hole. It will fit but that doesn't make it right.

Not in the least. Belts are fine. But it might be good idea to award them based on the fact that they are an indication of the level one has reached. This should be made clear. For sure it has become over emphasized.

 

[Tez3]

I think maybe you and I are viewing "don't like" from different angles. There's "don't wanna do it right now!", and there's "I don't like doing this thing!" If it's a "right now" thing, that's what they (at that age) sometimes need to persevere through. If it's something they actually don't like doing at all, that's something they often don't need to be doing (except where it's something like a learning activity, but many of those can be made into a fun exercise for kids). At that age, they probably only need "some" exposure to perseverance, and not a constant stream of it.

I look at it from an adult point of view, ie would I want to try it or do it? As adults we wouldn't be forced to try things we didn't want to, I don't want to try ski jumping as much as I love watching it, nor would I want to try rally driving or fishing so why make a child try things if they don't like the look of them. If they want to try something for example gymnastics I'd let them and tell them to give a few weeks before we buy anything needed. if you ask a child if they want to try boxing and they say no that should be the end of it, why would you make a child try it? Leisure activities and sports should totally be the child's choice not imposed on them by adults.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I look at it from an adult point of view, ie would I want to try it or do it? As adults we wouldn't be forced to try things we didn't want to, I don't want to try ski jumping as much as I love watching it, nor would I want to try rally driving or fishing so why make a child try things if they don't like the look of them. If they want to try something for example gymnastics I'd let them and tell them to give a few weeks before we buy anything needed. if you ask a child if they want to try boxing and they say no that should be the end of it, why would you make a child try it? Leisure activities and sports should totally be the child's choice not imposed on them by adults.

Yes, and that's the "don't like doing this" as opposed to the "I don't want to do this right now" view. We are pretty much in agreement on that. I might encourage a child to sample an available activity they aren't sure about (especially if a sample is available, such as a short class on an activity day), but not one they really don't want to do (though I'm not sure where the line should be drawn for group learning activities at that age).

All of this mess is part of the reason I don't like teaching kids in that age group. My natural tendency is to teach kids in class a bit too much like adults. Once they get a bit older (at least 10, maybe a bit more), they benefit more from the perseverance lesson, and are a bit more likely to have chosen the activity for themselves.

 

[Hyoho]

I have spent most of my life in Japan working in the education system in Kindergarten, Junior High, High School. College and University. Around 3000 students every year. I worked as a guidance counsellor and principal with close contact with parents and students. In all that time there was but one suicide. This was a second-year high school girl and it was related to her parents splitting up.

The main thing about MA practice at least in Japan is that everyday practice, competition and gradings kata etc. should be treated the same. There should be no special emphasis on any part. A grading is a periodic check to see how far you have advanced and based on what you can do. Never on what you can't do.

Japanese schools do football, rugby, baseball, swimming, athletics, kendo, judo. All the other stuff that other schools all over the world do. The only special emphasis on budo is that you will need a minimum sandan level to move on jobs related to those arts. As most kids already have eight years experience before they even join high school it's a walk in the park. No one is forced to do it. It's a choice and they make and know what it entails to be good at it.

I remember the days that educational budo really was a no pain no gain activity in Japan. Nowadays it's far more laid back and the same levels are achieved.

I also played Rugby. I distinctly remember by teacher kicking me in the back with his boot to 'encourage' me to play harder. That was probably instrumental in me having a dislike for ball games and what spurred me on to practice budo. Something I found I was good at but encouraged to push the limit without the violence.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

I think mostly macdojo are the Taekwondo because they give kids black belt at age 7 or 5

 

[Tez3]

Most young children's activities are only for an hour or two a week, they don't practice a lot outside class, in things such as martial arts it's best if they don't if they aren't completely sure of the techniques, bad practice being worse than no practice. Again with young children they often don't want to go to a class if they've had a tiring day at school, so it's better if they miss rather than turn up unwillingly. if older children don't want to go it's always better to find out why before trying to persuade them they need to go, I'd always listen to children before telling them they ought to do something.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to get their children into ponies though! Unless you have loads of money as ponies need a constant stream of money spent on them, don't mind mucking out, driving horse boxes, walking courses, learning dressage tests and smelling of horses. We always had horses and ponies and to be fair though it did lead my daughter to fantastic jobs and an equally fantastic husband. ( Said husband is in Chicago at the moment with a horse called 'Scottish' who is going to win the Arlington Million..if you want a bet)

 

[PhotonGuy]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down

Well not all coaches are like that, not all instructors are like that, and not all teachers are like that. Back when I was on the swim team our coach told us that on our road to success we will fail, lots of times. If you always win and you always succeed than you don't know what its like to truly win and succeed. You won't know what its like to truly take on a challenge and to truly beat the challenge. Most moms and dads no doubt want their children to know that too. Failure isn't necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it, its only bad if you don't learn from it.

 

[Hyoho]

It comes with it's own problems though. I wouldn't say that young Japanese children have exceptional abilities that children in other countries don't have, I'd say they are hot housed and pressured into becoming something they are too young to be. With a suicide rate as high as Japans it would bear more investigation than boasting about how good Japanese children are compared to foreigners.

Sorry if my post came over wrong. Yes you are right. They have exceptional abilities but its the way they teach They do repetition hour after hour every day at kindergarden. Even schools teach the same way. No questions asked, just "study". Then at the end of every day, tests to see if they absorbed what you taught them. This is the basis for grading systems in Japan. It does have its advantages and disadvantages. It depends what you apply it to. For sure it does not make them better human beings. If anything mindless zombies. But then again they know no other life.

 

[Tez3]

Well not all coaches are like that, not all instructors are like that, and not all teachers are like that. Back when I was on the swim team our coach told us that on our road to success we will fail, lots of times. If you always win and you always succeed than you don't know what its like to truly win and succeed. You won't know what its like to truly take on a challenge and to truly beat the challenge. Most moms and dads no doubt want their children to know that too. Failure isn't necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it, its only bad if you don't learn from it.

That's dependent on the age of the children, if they are under 10 then they are being pushed too hard too soon, if they are teenagers then that's fair comment but it does very much depend on the children's ages.

 

[Tez3]

An event where participation is everything, where winning and losing are both celebrated. Started today and is a fantastic event. There's Judo too.
About | Special Olympics GB National Games Sheffield 2017

 

[Balrog]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

I agree. Part of what we teach is facing challenges and overcoming them. Another part of what we teach is self-defense. I am not doing right by my students if I promote them solely for showing up and writing checks.

I've had students quit because I no-changed them at a testing. I remember one family that quit because the youngest daughter NCed. The mom got all in my face about how much I had upset the daughter. My response was simply to ask her if she intended to let the girl quit everything she tried once it got difficult, and how much did mom think that was going to help her in her later life. She pulled the family out anyway. You can't win them all.

 

[Tez3]

I remember one family that quit because the youngest daughter NCed. The mom got all in my face about how much I had upset the daughter. My response was simply to ask her if she intended to let the girl quit everything she tried once it got difficult, and how much did mom think that was going to help her in her later life. She pulled the family out anyway. You can't win them all.

You do wonder sometimes though whether children simply don't want to do it so aren't putting full effort into it because they want to leave. In my experience children who are keen tend not to mind when it gets more difficult, children who don't want to do it anyway are the ones who don't like the difficult bits unless of course they believe their parents when they tell them they are 'totally the most talented so should sail through gradings'!

 

[Xue Sheng]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down

We do have a habit of promoting and rewarding mediocrity these days, especially in athletic endeavors, and I do not agree with this at all... and I was the kid in school that came in last or darn close to it in virtually all athletic events I took part in.... but martial arts was my thing and that I did good at and worked to to good at. I remember belt tests from the early to late 70s and you were not given a belt, as a matter of fact just because there was a test coming up didn't mean you were testing....today, especially in some of your "McDojos" in my area they are pretty much given away and not always for skill in marital arts, sometimes for your ability to do your chores at home and this is based on a form the parent's fill out each month. My little Aikidoka's first school was a TKD based McDojos" and that is what they did..... and parents would get all bent out of shape if their child did not get a promotion each time, even if their child had no clue as rto what to do as it applies to the form or move they were asked to do... I got bent out of shape once because my little Aikidoka did absolutely everything perfect for the test, we had worked on it, and they did not promote here over those that did much worse because I did not know about, or fill out, the "Chores" form".....Currently in her Aikido School I see no such thing, they work on what they need to know for their rank and are graded based on what they do. They also are required to be in class so many hours before they can test and I have no issue with this, nor does my little Aikidoka, she knows if she does badly she will not get promoted in Aikido, so she works for it. ....

but if your child is involved in Music competitions, my little Aikidoka is, they do not reward mediocrity, they reward excellence. And some will even acknowledge 2nd and 3rd place,. but don't fool yourself, you are very aware that you lost if you did not get 1st and there are never rewards for anything beyond 3rd place and some times no rewards for anything beyond 1st place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

An event where participation is everything, where winning and losing are both celebrated. Started today and is a fantastic event. There's Judo too.
About | Special Olympics GB National Games Sheffield 2017

This is one of those areas where "participation" is earned, so a reward for participation isn't empty.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You do wonder sometimes though whether children simply don't want to do it so aren't putting full effort into it because they want to leave. In my experience children who are keen tend not to mind when it gets more difficult, children who don't want to do it anyway are the ones who don't like the difficult bits unless of course they believe their parents when they tell them they are 'totally the most talented so should sail through gradings'!

That last part is a real problem for overly-supportive parents. Kids "reinforced" that way do tend to give up quite easily. The paradigm they have built is that things are easy. Difficulty leads to cognitive dissonance, and quitting is an easy solution (psychologically speaking) to ending the discomfort of that dissonance.

 

[Tez3]

overly-supportive parents

I think you are being polite here.

Quitting will be the easy solution because it's obviously the instructor's fault for not recognising the talent of their offspring so they have to leave to find instructors that understand how to coach such wonderful children who are obviously destined to get to the top. I think they will find that instructor though who will take lots of their money and provide lots of lovely belts for the offspring, just hope though they never actually need their martial arts!

 

[JR 137]

I think you are being polite here.

Quitting will be the easy solution because it's obviously the instructor's fault for not recognising the talent of their offspring so they have to leave to find instructors that understand how to coach such wonderful children who are obviously destined to get to the top. I think they will find that instructor though who will take lots of their money and provide lots of lovely belts for the offspring, just hope though they never actually need their martial arts!

It's not the instructor's fault, per se. Sometimes the kid is so good that the teacher gets jealous and holds the kid back because the instructor doesn't want the kid to grow up to be better than him.

I've actually heard that one once. Sadly, I wish I could have made that delusional excuse up.