Mark Hatmaker

[mook jong man]

Is Mark Hatmaker well regarded in the U.S.A , i am thinking of purchasing some of his videos .
From the little bits i have seen i am impressed by his training methods , just wondering what more knowledgeable people on the subject think of him . thanks in advance

 

[punisher73]

Go to your nearest large chain bookstore and look at his books, he has several out now on different aspects of the MMA game. His stuff on the videos is comparable.

His stuff is basic and sound. I think alot of people dissed him for awhile with some of his marketing (TRS stuff) and also alot of anti-bjj grappling stuff (his stuff seems to be more catch-wrestling) when he has never competed.

I'm not saying you HAVE to compete to be a good fighter/coach or to teach others, just relaying the complaints I have heard.

On the other hand, I have also heard many people that were very happy with his products. He does seem to have the attitude that if it's not from a western sport (boxing, kickboxing, wrestling) than it is worthless.

 

[Skpotamus]

He shows a lot of locks in his books that are pretty low percentage. That and his lack of competition lead to a lot of bashing.

Personally, I don't like his ground fighting books, but his takedown book is pretty good.

 

[Ybot]

Basically, from what I've seen he is a Western Martial Art proponent. His stuff is based off of Catch Wrestling, and old school boxing (pugilism). His stuff is okay (I've only had exposure to his books), being some stuff is better than others. His grappling stuff is so-so IMO. Too many submissions, not enough basic concepts.

 

[Marginal]

His books have the virtue of being cheap. Look at them before the vids.

 

[arnisador]

He certainly has a lot of books out!

 

[Radhnoti]

My school (where I train, not MY school actually) has had Mark come in and give us "boot camps" and seminars, I've also traveled to his house for some private lessons. I have all his books and one DVD, our school works some of his training drills into almost every class.

Mark's background is primarily wrestling and boxing...and his knowledge in person is practically encyclopedic. He works everything from a "western, empirical" angle and he focuses on techniques that he feels are high percentage.
I've found the books to be very well put together, and broken down into logical categories. The DVD I have is similar and the production quality is fairly high. "Well presented" is a fair estimate of the material I own.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Is Mark Hatmaker well regarded in the U.S.A , i am thinking of purchasing some of his videos .
From the little bits i have seen i am impressed by his training methods , just wondering what more knowledgeable people on the subject think of him . thanks in advance

I have several of his videos and i think they are filled with information. Whenever I look for something on a particular topic, i check his stuff first. He's very pragmatic.

What rubs some people the wrong way is that he isn't BJJ so BJJ people consider him worthless. If you can get around that, you'll find he has lots of good information. But don't expect his material to necessarily improve your BJJ either.

 

[Radhnoti]

You might want to check out Mark's website:

www.extremeselfprotection.com

 

[STL FREESTYLE]

I think Hatmaker produces quality products. You just have to approach things with an open mind and understand BJJ and muay thai aren't the only truth when it comes to MMA and self defense.

If people did their research they would realize that most if not all of BJJ's techniques already exist in Japanese Ju Juitsu/Judo. The Muay thai clinch already existed is Greco. Old school pugilism included elbows, knees and wrestling clinches and throws.(Just like Muay Thai)

 

[Skpotamus]

Hmm, gonna have to disagree with you a bit here. Greco Roman wrestling originated in France in the 1800's, literally hundreds of years after Muay Thai developed. The thai clinch is quite a bit different from the head control taught in Greco Roman Wrestling

Hatmakers books have some good wrestling but there are alos technical flaws in them, such as shooting while bent at the waist, which will get you headlocked and sprawled on in wrestling, choked out in MMA/BJJ.
His submissions also have a lot of technical flaws in them that remind me of a guy I met who taught himself from videos and never really learned how to do things against competant opponents or from a qualified instructor.

The flaws in his techniques are the little things that make the difference between a beginner and an intermediate student. Not leaving space for your opponent to escape, not isolating limbs, things that are universal to sinking submissions on resisting opponents and not just BJJ or shootwrestling.

If you're a grappler looking to add to your game, you'll see the flaws in the books pretty quickly. If you're a standup guy looking to add grappling, you'd be better off looking at some of the world class grapplers and competitors who have released books and videos with clean technique.

For BJJ style grappling - pretty much any gracie book or video will have much better technique and detail. Personally, I'm a huge fan of Roy Harris (black belt under Joe Moreira) for his attention to details in his instructionals and the voice over work he does to point things out. He's competed against top level BJJ'ers and done incredibly well againste elite level grapplers. His technique is well tested.

For shootwrestlling style grappling, check out Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling. He's an instructor who teaches with Dan Inosanto for JKD, studies under Yori Nakamura for Shootwrestling (yori brought shooto to the US), teaches josh barnett, Sean Sherk and brock lesnar as well as many others and was the first non japanese shooto champion in Japan. His technique is excellent and well tested.
For more wrestling based work check out Tony Ceechine's catchwrestling dvd's. While he hasn't done any competitions, his holds are solid and tight and work well with a wrestling background.

As always, YMMV.

 

[STL FREESTYLE]

My timelines may be a little off, but my point is there is nothing new in the martial arts. Everything that exists in a Muay thai clinch exists in Greco. And they call the "bend at the waist" takedowns dives, and they're pretty common in mma. I personally think they are better than bouncing off the mat and shooting right into your opponents knee. But thats my personal preference.

You cant really judge Hatmakers material based on those 12 dollar picture books. Nor others based on others opinions. I'm sure those books are meant for total beginners who dont have access to a gym/dojo. Get one of his DVDs work some of the drills and decide for yourself.


As far as Roy Harris is concerned, I bought his leglocks dvd and I thought it was poor. All he did was show leglock after leglock, without showing how to get into correct position. Maybe itr was just that one. Are there any other Roy Harris tapes you can recommend?

 

[Skpotamus]

Perhaps he does his techniques correctly in his DVD's. However, one would think that while posing for a still picture one would use proper technique instead of leaving basic level errors in. We're talking about the things that make the difference between a technique working and not. Not nitpicky details that don't make a lot of difference.

If you're referring to the High Dive takedown in greco roman wrestling, proper form (as I learned it) calls for the torso of the attacker to be vertical and penetrate deeply into the opponent with the lead leg to lift or drive forward with drive coming from the rear leg. Essentially, good double leg takedown form with the grip hitting the waist instead of the legs (which is illegal in greco). See Randy Coutures Wrestling for Fighting for the proper High Dive technique. Greco Roman Wrestling by William Martel shows the technique the same way Randy Couture does.
I honestly can't say I've seen someone do a dive like that (bent over) in anything but small, local shows and I can't recall it ever ending well for the person attempting it. We're talking about bending over a full 90 degrees at the waist from kicking range and charging straight in with the legs basically straight, in essentially, a football tackle. Doing that is what gets you kneed, choked or sprawled on, IME.

I've never seen the Roy harris leg lock DVD. I assume you are talking about the heel hook seminar he sold? That I have seen his BJJ 101 series and it's excellent. His attention to detail is great. He covers pretty much everything you can think of and a lot of things you probably can't.

While digging around for more info, i came across these reviews on his material from other websites. I hope it's ok to post these here.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15777
http://www.**************/forums/archive/index.php/t-27737.html
Here Matt Thornton of Straight Blast Gym does a review of his material here.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f16/mark-hatmakers-no-holds-barred-fighting-series-review-319362/
http://www.**************/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=80,
I note that the people who give him glowing reviews typically have little experience with the subject matter prior to his material, while those who do have experience, tend to give him a much poorer review.

My final thoughts, Mark hatmaker's DVD's might be a lot better than his books, but the technical errors in his books are enough to make me pause. Mark Hatmaker has never competed in any type of submission grappling event or MMA event. A brief search on google yields no results of fighters he's even trained. There are far better instructionals out there made by world champion competitors and coaches of world champion competitors.

As always, YMMV.

Edit: I apologize if my post is in anyway inflammatory or derogatory to anyone, I'm writing this quite late and am pretty tired. My intent is not to antagonize or belittle anyone, merely express my opinion, and the internet is not the best way to do that.

 

[STL FREESTYLE]

Thanks for the Roy Harris recommendation. The one link you posted isnt SBGI's Matt Thornton though. Matt is from Oregan and as far as know he boxed and has done BJJ tournaments, but never did amateur mma.

 

[Ybot]

The bend at the waist Leg dive as taught by Mark Hatmaker is common in old catch-as-catch-can manuals.

Check out the pic titled "Double Leg Hold" here:

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson02.htm

And "Leg Hold From Dive" here:

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson04.htm

"Dive For the Legs" here:

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson06.htm

 

[Skpotamus]

It should be pointed out that choke holds weren't legal in catch wrestling during that time period (quoted from plate 172, lesson 10). Striking was also not allowed so the things you would have to worry about during leg dives, chokes and strikes weren't issues then. It should also be pointed out that nowhere in the manuals is a sprawl mentioned or listed as a form of defense. It's pretty much the standard defense for takedown attempts and counters in freestyle or collegiate wrestling.

Those same manuals also show body slams popular in pro wrestling today which I have yet to see performed in a fight, a double wrist throw that involves pulling both of your opponents hands through their own legs then somersaulting them forward from behind (I woudl love to see someone attempt this, much less pull it off), my personal favorite (plate 140), the "leg bar lock" where he is inside a body scissors position (known today as the guard), where the drives one shoulder down so he can pass a leg underneath his opponents leg and apply a leg lock using only his arms. A student of modern judo would see that farmer burns has put himself into a sankaku jime, or Triangle choke. There's also the half nelson hold with the leg and foot (plate 151), where you stand over your opponent, drive your leg under their arm, up over their head and apply a nelson.
It shows the classic "scissors hold" where you wrap your legs around your partner and squeeze them. This comes up in almost every modern MMA or submission grappling match and I have yet to see someone submitted by this position.

The health portion also cautions you about drinking water as more than a glass or two of ice water is bad and "will do much damage"

The neat thing about wrestling and boxing is that they continue to evolve over the years through competition. Things that don't work get dropped or modified until they do work. Maybe those leg dives worked in traveling carnivals 100 years ago against people with no wrestling training, or looked good in worked matches. Maybe the sprawl was developed as a response to those. They won't work against anybody with any type of grappling training today, and would have a high failure rate against non trained people as well.

Old catch wrestling manuals and boxing manuals are neat historical references, and do contain some wonderful wrestling techniques. However, they also contain a lot of pro wrestling bunk that only worked during wrestling exhibitions for the crowds.

 

[lklawson]

It should be pointed out that choke holds weren't legal in catch wrestling during that time period (quoted from plate 172, lesson 10).

Depends on the agreed upon rules. Evan "Strangler" Lewis (and subsequently Ed "Strangler" Lewis) were overlapping, if not quite contemporaries (the first earlier, the second later) of Burns.

Striking was also not allowed

Usually true, yes.

It should also be pointed out that nowhere in the manuals is a sprawl mentioned or listed as a form of defense. It's pretty much the standard defense for takedown attempts and counters in freestyle or collegiate wrestling.

True. Though the sprawl wasn't nessasarily unknown. While taking a seminar with WMA instructor and professional fight choreographer Brad Waller I noted medieval illustrations of the shot, the sprawl, and the srawl with an underhook and head-control illustrated in Kampfringen manuals (Durer, I think). Maybe it wasn't used. Maybe it was "forgotten" until recently. Maybe it was considered too elementary to include. Who knows?

Those same manuals also show body slams popular in pro wrestling today which I have yet to see performed in a fight,

You occasionally see slams in MMA and Judo.

a double wrist throw that involves pulling both of your opponents hands through their own legs then somersaulting them forward from behind (I woudl love to see someone attempt this, much less pull it off),

Yeah. That one definitely makes me curious alright.

my personal favorite (plate 140), the "leg bar lock" where he is inside a body scissors position (known today as the guard), where the drives one shoulder down so he can pass a leg underneath his opponents leg and apply a leg lock using only his arms. A student of modern judo would see that farmer burns has put himself into a sankaku jime, or Triangle choke.

Yeah. The funny thing is that it's not as if Judo and JJ were uknown. Though not yet as popular as Wrestling, the were available. Burns himself calls it "tricky Japanese wrestling" in one of his advertising fliers and contemporaries such as Hackenschmidt recommend cross-training in the style.

It has been suggested by some that some of what Burns is doing is actually deliberate misinformation to throw off the competition for the guys he's training.

The health portion also cautions you about drinking water as more than a glass or two of ice water is bad and "will do much damage"

The specific reference is to ice water, not to water in general. This was standard advice all the way up through, well... it's still standard. You can easily find advice to drink only room temperature (or even warm) tap water and never/seldom ice water because it'll give you cramps.

That specific reference aside, Burns' health section has a lot of good stuff but also a lot of it that we now consider questionable or outright wrong (such as his advice on bathing, for instance or his advice on a mechanical vibrator machine).

The neat thing about wrestling and boxing is that they continue to evolve over the years through competition. Things that don't work get dropped or modified until they do work. Maybe those leg dives worked in traveling carnivals 100 years ago against people with no wrestling training, or looked good in worked matches. Maybe the sprawl was developed as a response to those. They won't work against anybody with any type of grappling training today, and would have a high failure rate against non trained people as well.

Who knows? It's all speculation and educated guesswork today.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Old catch wrestling manuals and boxing manuals are neat historical references, and do contain some wonderful wrestling techniques. However, they also contain a lot of pro wrestling bunk that only worked during wrestling exhibitions for the crowds.[/quote]

 

[Ybot]

lklawson did an excellent job responding to Skpotamus, I just want to add that I posted this as reference to my previous statement that Hatmaker seems to base a lot of his technique on Catch material... including his leg dive.

It is fun to pick these techniques apart though, and speculate (if we decide they are not useful) why they were originally used, and why we don't see them today. So, on that note:

The Leg Dive: Absolutely a leg dive is risky in MMA, and BJJ, but I believe there are both pros and cons to this technique.

Cons: Leg dives seem to leave you more open to strikes and chokes, and your bad posture makes it easier to defend by pushing the head.

Pros: If done on the street you don't have to "knock" your knees to the ground. If done explosively you can snatch up your opponents leg(s) and drop them to the mat before they have a chance to control you, and initiated from the same level at which you are throwing strikes.

Speculation wise I think the reason we see more shots today where the opponent changes levels and shoots with good posture, is because of the universal use of mats in wrestling. It doesn't hurt as much to "knock" your knee so if you can shoot in good posture, you should. Also, because it is not as easy to actually "counter" a shot when a wrestler is in good posture, sprawling became much more common. Think about it, the oppertunities for a full out counter are much higher with a leg dive, so they probably worked these counters more often when leg dives where more common.

 

[lklawson]

Speculation wise I think the reason we see more shots today where the opponent changes levels and shoots with good posture, is because of the universal use of mats in wrestling. It doesn't hurt as much to "knock" your knee so if you can shoot in good posture, you should. Also, because it is not as easy to actually "counter" a shot when a wrestler is in good posture, sprawling became much more common. Think about it, the oppertunities for a full out counter are much higher with a leg dive, so they probably worked these counters more often when leg dives where more common.

This seems like a reasonable speculation. Most catch matches, particularly traveling vaudeville type didn't usually have anything better than a grassy field.

And you're right, a good shot can be hard on the knees if you do it "wrestling" style. For that reason I know several people who teach modified footwork and timing just to go easier on the knees.

Following this line of speculation, the introduction of the shot is an evolution in wrestling to be most successful in the given environment.

Yes, it's speculation, but it seems reasonable. No way to know for sure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hand Sword]

Well, for me, I've seen quite a few of his DVD's and I would recommend them for people. All of the flaws are talked about and how to avoid them and what happens if you do them. Overall, I think he has good stuff, though I would like to hear veteran grapplers/wrestlers view them with open minds and give an honest judgement.

As for the idea of wrestling being invented in the 1800's, well there is very ancient evidence going back to the B.C. (E) days of it being practiced and awards given for it.