Manners or Kenpo?

The Master

Bow Before Me.
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Greetings and Solicitations, my students of the arts!

Over the years I have traveled some, and attended functions in many places. I have formulated an interesting conclusion that I will share shortly. Some background is in order however.

Most of the arts I have dabbled in over the years tend to be relaxed in structure. Most don't use belting structures, nor do they care about artificial score cards such as rank. Interactions with the practitioners of these arts tend to also follow a relaxed structure. You are on a first name basis with your teacher, some even have cute nicknames for each other. It is relaxed, and friendly, and everyone there can kill to greater or lesser degrees of sweat.

Contrast that with Kenpo.
You have masters, and senior masters, and professors and sensei this and sifu that and everyone sirs everyone to death. You sit by color belt rank, and you line up for food by time served, and no one starts to eat until the guy with the most stripes has burped, but first you must say grace. It looks so regimental, so "British". But, underneath all this forced respect, and artificial order, lies egomaniacs, despots, poor manners, and a serious lack of disrespect for anyone who doesn't kenpoo the way that youdoo.

Your art is probably the most documented, most published and most structured of any out there, yet you will wage holy war over who is in your upline. Guys will stand on high and proclaim how many decades they have in, as if that means something. Yet, they have all the temperament and maturity of a 17 year old school yard bully. They engage in childish games, and boorish behavior that in any cultured circle would find the offender expelled and his membership revoked. Yet, here they are sir and master and professor.

The people who formulated your art were geniuses. I am truly impressed by what I have read, and the recent lost writings of Ed Parker Sr. continue to show me a man who was ahead of his time and who passed too soon. But his students, and oh too many of those who you call senior and teacher and master and professor and a dozen other titles, you I am afraid fall far short of the mark.

I have read complaints from a few of this site's rejected souls elsewhere, then researched their posts. The common ground for them all, they are bullies who resent being told 'no'. Some of these bullies are still here, for now. I suspect soon they will join their kin in exile, and proclaim loudly on lesser read sites how "mistreated" they were. The reality of course is, they are common trash with a great number of stripes on their bag.

One can be a lady or gentleman and a martial artist both. The idea of personal enrichment is alive in the arts. It is alive in the art of kenpo as well, I can see it in the founders words. Why those who claim to have studied for decades have not managed to grow up however, is a mystery this Master cannot answer. Instead they lurk here, hiding cowardly behind a false mask of affabilty all the while seeking instead to forment discord and bring disruption upon us, playing the victim of others malice. In the common language, they are called trolls, though troll might be too kind for some, or too intelligent a term. They know who they are.

So, answer for yourselves. Will you be enriched by your art, strive to become more than you are, and be a gentleman? Or, will you stay or sink to the level of a common street thug, only with fancier dance steps to amuse your victims as you bully them for lunch money?

The choice my dear people is always yours.

For me, I remain, The Master.
 
so British? Good Grief! That's the last analogy I'd have used, British martial arts are all much more laid back!

For the rest of it I haven't the foggiest idea of what the post about so will leave it to others to answer!
 
That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.

But, after such a post on modesty and getting back to training, why on earth would you sign you post "For me, I remain, The Master." ???
 
so British? Good Grief! That's the last analogy I'd have used, British martial arts are all much more laid back!

For the rest of it I haven't the foggiest idea of what the post about so will leave it to others to answer!
I think it's in reference to the way Americans see 'classic' British society.

Too much Faulty Towers I'd hazard. :)
 
That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.

But, after such a post on modesty and getting back to training, why on earth would you sign you post "For me, I remain, The Master." ???
This was posted on KenpoTalk a few hours ago.
http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510
 
That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.

I've seen disproportionately much of this type of thing from the Kenpo community. Something in the worship of Ed Parker brings out this kind of attitude.

But there are good and bad people in all arts.
 
A group of us from the North Eastern USA are working on this. We are attempting to resolve this problem in our area.
:cheers:
 
The first sign of bad manners is when someone does not properly introduce himself before beginning a conversation.
 
I don't think this problem/concern/issue/whatever you want to call it is limited to Kenpo. The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people want to address you respectfully, and demanding respect, and deriding those who disagree. In fact, I think I'm going to start a new thread about that....
 
It isn't a kenpo thing, its a family thing. :D

The only people who spend hours on these boards are people with a passion for their arts. And unsurprisingly, some minority of those have very strong opinions on particular subjects, and given kenpo's recent and fairly fractious history, no wonder the message boards occaisionally get their collective panties in a bunch. Who fights meaner and dirtier more than brothers and sisters?, much less KENPO brothers and sisters....

Lamont
 
Very true! And I feel really bad to those outsiders that mess with our family. Family fights are nasty, just look at what's done in ours. But, the outsider that messes with a family member gets a whole lot worse!
 
I was wondering when this kind of argument would come up. Could it be that the guard is finally changing? Are the new and newer schools becoming the majority? I remember when I first started, rank had a signifigance to some extend. It determined what Gi color you could wear, who could or could not dummy up for someone else. Junior ranks never had senior ranks punch in for them. Slowly, I've watched the evolution to this. With the commercialization I noticed less formality. For instance, instructors were on a first name basis. With the more family atmospheres the more less formality existed. Everyone were friends, or kind of peer like. Even still, certain higher ups got their props and recognition in the dojo setting. It was never questioned, but enforced. I reason that it was due to a large enough number of old schoolers, or those influenced by them, around. Maybe now, with the super money making setting, and the quick promotions, the old guard, with the exception of a few, has been replaced. The old mindsets are gone, or not focussed on as much. The ways are much friendlier now, and the mindsets show it. If an oldschooler tries what was a very normal thing at one time, they are now looked at at egotistic. Now, I'll agree there are definitely some who are and are guilty of the accusations of this thread. But, as they shrink, their voices will get louder until they vanish from the scene completely. It's just another topic of the arts that could be debated as something valuable lost, or something archaic that was stupid. I don't know, but, it's definitely interesting. I keep seeing what was once thought to never be a discussion worthy of addressing, or so common sense that a dummy slap would be needed, keep appearing.

Very interesting indeed.
icon7.gif
 
I was wondering when this kind of argument would come up. Could it be that the guard is finally changing? Are the new and newer schools becoming the majority? I remember when I first started, rank had a signifigance to some extend. It determined what Gi color you could wear, who could or could not dummy up for someone else. Junior ranks never had senior ranks punch in for them. Slowly, I've watched the evolution to this. With the commercialization I noticed less formality. For instance, instructors were on a first name basis. With the more family atmospheres the more less formality existed. Everyone were friends, or kind of peer like. Even still, certain higher ups got their props and recognition in the dojo setting. It was never questioned, but enforced. I reason that it was due to a large enough number of old schoolers, or those influenced by them, around. Maybe now, with the super money making setting, and the quick promotions, the old guard, with the exception of a few, has been replaced. The old mindsets are gone, or not focussed on as much. The ways are much friendlier now, and the mindsets show it. If an oldschooler tries what was a very normal thing at one time, they are now looked at at egotistic. Now, I'll agree there are definitely some who are and are guilty of the accusations of this thread. But, as they shrink, their voices will get louder until they vanish from the scene completely. It's just another topic of the arts that could be debated as something valuable lost, or something archaic that was stupid. I don't know, but, it's definitely interesting. I keep seeing what was once thought to never be a discussion worthy of addressing, or so common sense that a dummy slap would be needed, keep appearing.

Very interesting indeed.
icon7.gif

I don't have much experience with other schools but even though we're a pretty big school, we still maintain discipline and rank structure. It's part of the whole package.

What's really interesting is the way that type of operating procedure is scoffed at by so many "modern" martial artists. If done for a reason, I have no problem with tradition.
 
The majority of the old guard were / are not bad people or were their ways. Remember, many of the old guard lived during the times of great world wars and conflicts. I have noticed that with the passing of the old ways along with them did our manners.
 
so British? Good Grief! That's the last analogy I'd have used, British martial arts are all much more laid back!

For the rest of it I haven't the foggiest idea of what the post about so will leave it to others to answer!

Blame the American idea of the stereotypical Englishman with his stiff upper lip and desire to show good form. I'll lay the blame on too many episodes of Dr. Who and the Brigadier.

Rest is about those who give lip service to good manners, but only apply them to those who agree with them, and treat all others like dirt.

That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.

But, after such a post on modesty and getting back to training, why on earth would you sign you post "For me, I remain, The Master." ???

Because it would beg that question my good man.

I think it's in reference to the way Americans see 'classic' British society.

Too much Faulty Towers I'd hazard.

Pertwee and Baker era Who actually.

I've seen disproportionately much of this type of thing from the Kenpo community. Something in the worship of Ed Parker brings out this kind of attitude.

But there are good and bad people in all arts.

True. I don't see it as Parker Worship. More like "you aren't us, therefore you are not worthy of respect".

A group of us from the North Eastern USA are working on this. We are attempting to resolve this problem in our area.

Best of luck to you sir!

The first sign of bad manners is when someone does not properly introduce himself before beginning a conversation.

I thought I had, elsewhere. I'll have to check and remedy that.

I don't think this problem/concern/issue/whatever you want to call it is limited to Kenpo. The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people want to address you respectfully, and demanding respect, and deriding those who disagree. In fact, I think I'm going to start a new thread about that....

Very true, and thank you for understanding.

It isn't a kenpo thing, its a family thing.

The only people who spend hours on these boards are people with a passion for their arts. And unsurprisingly, some minority of those have very strong opinions on particular subjects, and given kenpo's recent and fairly fractious history, no wonder the message boards occaisionally get their collective panties in a bunch. Who fights meaner and dirtier more than brothers and sisters?, much less KENPO brothers and sisters....

Lamont

Who fights fiercer than family? Who ever heard of a 'civil' war?

Very true! And I feel really bad to those outsiders that mess with our family. Family fights are nasty, just look at what's done in ours. But, the outsider that messes with a family member gets a whole lot worse!

My siblings and I will agree with you.

I like that "Lesser Sites" part.
Sean

That is what they are. Less content, less traffic, less people, less usefulness. But all the freedom to say **** and you suck they want.

I was wondering when this kind of argument would come up. Could it be that the guard is finally changing? Are the new and newer schools becoming the majority? I remember when I first started, rank had a signifigance to some extend. It determined what Gi color you could wear, who could or could not dummy up for someone else. Junior ranks never had senior ranks punch in for them. Slowly, I've watched the evolution to this. With the commercialization I noticed less formality. For instance, instructors were on a first name basis. With the more family atmospheres the more less formality existed. Everyone were friends, or kind of peer like. Even still, certain higher ups got their props and recognition in the dojo setting. It was never questioned, but enforced. I reason that it was due to a large enough number of old schoolers, or those influenced by them, around. Maybe now, with the super money making setting, and the quick promotions, the old guard, with the exception of a few, has been replaced. The old mindsets are gone, or not focussed on as much. The ways are much friendlier now, and the mindsets show it. If an oldschooler tries what was a very normal thing at one time, they are now looked at at egotistic. Now, I'll agree there are definitely some who are and are guilty of the accusations of this thread. But, as they shrink, their voices will get louder until they vanish from the scene completely. It's just another topic of the arts that could be debated as something valuable lost, or something archaic that was stupid. I don't know, but, it's definitely interesting. I keep seeing what was once thought to never be a discussion worthy of addressing, or so common sense that a dummy slap would be needed, keep appearing.

Very interesting indeed.

Part of my comment is target at the old school. Too often these internet bullies are 20, 30+ year veterans. I hope however that they are the minority, and that their influence continues to shrink.

I don't have much experience with other schools but even though we're a pretty big school, we still maintain discipline and rank structure. It's part of the whole package.

What's really interesting is the way that type of operating procedure is scoffed at by so many "modern" martial artists. If done for a reason, I have no problem with tradition.

There is nothing wrong with tradition. Please do not take that as my intent. I find that respect in the arts to be a refreshing thing, but sadly a sign of an older time. Today, it is too often about paying the rent, not instilling discipline in little Tommy. Even so, respect shouldn't be limited to just those in your circle.

The majority of the old guard were / are not bad people or were their ways. Remember, many of the old guard lived during the times of great world wars and conflicts. I have noticed that with the passing of the old ways along with them did our manners.

Old style manners are dying. No more do men tip their hats, or step aside for the ladies. More is the pity here. I tend towards the old fashioned myself, but children today have an attitude when you insist they say thank you, or please, or so not interrupt when you are speaking. This lack I find extends more and more to those I often share floors with, and in the comments on forums such as this by those often held in high esteem. They do not last long, and one of those I was thinking of when I wrote this has since met his own exile. It was a good event.
 
Greetings and Solicitations, my students of the arts!
Hi, I'm Matt. I've been away for a bit, at least as far as posting, but I've tried to keep tabs on the kenpo section even if I've been too busy to post since you've joined us here. The internet is cool and all, but I think any point you have is being lost on a large portion of the readers who are either struggling with the silly affectations in your writing style, or the extraordinary amount of arrogance and condecension that drips from your posts. Please try to share your admittedly valid points in a less obtuse manner.

For me, I remain, The Master.

Well, the master, good luck here, and I'll stick to being Matt. Oh, and for a guy who seems up on manners, protocol, and an egalitarian rant on rank, that 'bow before me' tag sure makes me scratch my head (virtually).
 
The Master, you sound like you are beating around the bush as to who you are and what style you practice etc. You do however sign off on a similar manner to ashida kim and use some similar words to him (I remain, trolls etc).

It isn't a secret that American Kenpo is splintered and that each Instructors students are loyal to him and whatever organisation they are affiliated with. Who cares?????????? As long as each person is happy with what they are learning and their organisation then there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.

There is arrogance present in all styles that have splintered however I wouldn't say American Kenpo isn't that much worse, it's just that it is more public in it's views as many instructors publish their views and 'style' in magazines and forums such as this. In this forum, even when people are presenting thoughts tainted by their organisations views, they are nothing but respectful.

So, The Master:

Who are you sir????

What style do you practice sir????

Apart from reading articles what is your experience with American Kenpo sir????

Cheers
Sam :asian: (note I've written my NAME here)
 
Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Al Cunningham and you are?

John Racheim

Hi, I'm Matt. I've been away for a bit, at least as far as posting, but I've tried to keep tabs on the kenpo section even if I've been too busy to post since you've joined us here. The internet is cool and all, but I think any point you have is being lost on a large portion of the readers who are either struggling with the silly affectations in your writing style, or the extraordinary amount of arrogance and condecension that drips from your posts. Please try to share your admittedly valid points in a less obtuse manner.

I write the way I write, and shant "dumb it down" as some would say. As to the arrogance, well, I am The Master.

Well, the master, good luck here, and I'll stick to being Matt. Oh, and for a guy who seems up on manners, protocol, and an egalitarian rant on rank, that 'bow before me' tag sure makes me scratch my head (virtually).

John Racheim.

The Master, you sound like you are beating around the bush as to who you are and what style you practice etc. You do however sign off on a similar manner to ashida kim and use some similar words to him (I remain, trolls etc).

No my friend, I am not him. For he is the ultimate ninja, why would he bother with kenpo?

It isn't a secret that American Kenpo is splintered and that each Instructors students are loyal to him and whatever organisation they are affiliated with. Who cares?????????? As long as each person is happy with what they are learning and their organisation then there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.

True words, and not something I have spoken about.

There is arrogance present in all styles that have splintered however I wouldn't say American Kenpo isn't that much worse, it's just that it is more public in it's views as many instructors publish their views and 'style' in magazines and forums such as this. In this forum, even when people are presenting thoughts tainted by their organisations views, they are nothing but respectful.

If but this was only true, then there would be no kenpoists among the exiled, now would there?

So, The Master:

Who are you sir????

John Racheim

What style do you practice sir????

Several

Apart from reading articles what is your experience with American Kenpo sir????

Cheers
Sam :asian: (note I've written my NAME here)

Several seminars, camps and other events over the past 20 years.

The attitude I refer to is obvious in the postings on numerous message boards, including the archives of this one.



Some seem to think that I attack kenpo. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those that do, should reread my original message.
 
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