Lowering the Gate

[Kenpo_man]

If you're not a Tracy's kenpo student, this move is the one in Short 2 where you do a rising block, followed with an eagle's beak to the opponents solar plexus. The reason for this thread is that many say the eagle's beak is for the ribs or sternum and probably a few other targets. Just let me know where you've been taught to hit with the eagle's beak so we can compare notes. Thanx.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm not sure what you are calling an Eagle's Beak? Are you talking about when v-stepping towards 6 and 12 in a wide kneel stance(s) executing the upward blocks with the downward vertical raking middle knuckle strike?

 

[Kenpo_man]

yes. the middle knuckle strike is what we call an eagle's beak.

 

[jfarnsworth]

OK, it's a raking motion used on the opponent's centerline teaching you how to use both toruqe and gravitational marriage while stepping under an opponents attack. The theme of using 2 simultaneous "x" at the same time.

 

[Kenpo_man]

I guess I wasn't very clear with my question. I was wondering where others were told to strike with the eagle's beak. The reason I ask is because I have heard people say many different things. I've heard that it is supposed to rake down the ribs. I've heard that it is supposed to rake down the center line. In my dojo we are told to hit the solar plexus and drive downward. We are trying to hit the xiphoid process (the little bone that hangs from the sternum) so that it jams into the descending aorta). Where do you hit with the strike and what is the desired result? Is it to injure, cause pain, set up the next strike? I hope that is clearer.

I appreciate your feedback. Everybody has a different way of looking at things and sometimes I end up liking their way better than my own.

 

[Drifter]

I've heard that the strike is to teach you how NOT to use the middle knuckle, so I would run the risk of saying that there is no target. Maybe Mr. C could step up to the plate on this one.

 

[Sam]

I was taught down the ribs.

 

[KenpoTex]

Sounds like we do this one a little different, the upward block is done with a claw to catch his face as he bends forward from the middle-knuckle fist to the groin.

 

[pete]

I've heard that the strike is to teach you how NOT to use the middle knuckle, so I would run the risk of saying that there is no target.

that is obsurd... we wouldn't be practicing something in a form over and over to learn how NOT to do something. how NOT to do something would be demonstrated like once, and shown WHY~

 

[Seabrook]

that is obsurd... we wouldn't be practicing something in a form over and over to learn how NOT to do something. how NOT to do something would be demonstrated like once, and shown WHY~

Actually Pete, there are a lot of people who would disagree with you here.

I have heard many people (including several high-ranking Kenpo seniors) say that executing a vertical middle-knuckle rake down the body will cause you injury since it doesn't have a brace and that this move was designed to teach you how not to strike.

Interesting discussion...let's keep it going.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kenpo_man]

Sounds like we do this one a little different, the upward block is done with a claw to catch his face as he bends forward from the middle-knuckle fist to the groin.

That's different then any I have heard.

 

[Kenpo_man]

Respectfully, I actually have to side with Pete on this one. I think that if a movement is ineffective it should be discarded. There are enough Kenpo techniques to practice nevermind all the wrong ways to do things. I don't punch with my wrist crooked just to remind myself how much it hurts my wrist. With that said, I have heard this explanation before and I brought it up with my sensei. He told me the strike wasn't a rake downwards, it was to be driven into the solar plexus with a downward trajectory. This removes the danger to the middle knuckle and does damage to the opponent. Has anyone heard this explanation before?

Actually Pete, there are a lot of people who would disagree with you here.

I have heard many people (including several high-ranking Kenpo seniors) say that executing a vertical middle-knuckle rake down the body will cause you injury since it doesn't have a brace and that this move was designed to teach you how not to strike.

Interesting discussion...let's keep it going.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[thesensei]

These are always fun discussions. What's the *right* way of doing it? :idunno: Weeeellll, Mr. Parker told me.... :ultracool just kidding

Anyway, I was originally taught to use a middle knuckle *uppercut* to the solar plexus. It feels right to me! I have seen other people doing it with the methods described here, but they just didn't flow right - probably because it's different from what I learned and practiced!

Salute,
Jeremiah

 

[Blindside]

I learned this as a upward block and a vertical punch.

Put me in the same camp as kenpo_man and pete, the idea of putting a "bad move" in a form is nuts, it may be true, but piss-poor logic to me.

Lamont

 

[Drifter]

Well, there is the linear 'punch' execution of the middle knuckle strike (Clutching Feathers), the horizontal raking execution (Leaping Crane), so category completion would call for a vertical rake. If the vertical rake is not such a smart thing to do on the street, then it would have to be put in a form. My two cents.

 

[Ceicei]

He told me the strike wasn't a rake downwards, it was to be driven into the solar plexus with a downward trajectory. This removes the danger to the middle knuckle and does damage to the opponent. Has anyone heard this explanation before?

Yes, I am taught that way and learned it with the same reasoning.

- Ceicei

 

[pete]

If the vertical rake is not such a smart thing to do on the street, then it would have to be put in a form.

sometimes i just cant believe what i am reading.

 

[Doc]

sometimes i just cant believe what i am reading.

Me neither. With all due respect to ranking seniors, or anyone else who would promote the idea that Ed Parker placed movements in a form to teach what NOT to do, over and over. That is rediculous. Of course I know some like Mr. Seabrook is just passing on what he was told, but it sounds like someone who doesn't know the answer is saying to a student the first thing that popped into his head.

I've often heard stories of how Ed Parker placed intentional mistakes in some of his work. Don't believe it. Ed Parker never did anything wrong in his life intentionally unless he was demonstrating and explaining why not to do something.

As far as the "raking" whateveryouwantocallit, an extended middle knuckle raking down the ribcage has no anatomical merit, and perhaps is the reason some have sought to explain or find an alternate application.

Category completion is a motion concept I don't subscribe to for what I consider obvious reasons illustrated here.

 

[Kenpo_man]

This one sounds good. It would have a totally different effect but it would still be effective. Thanx.

These are always fun discussions. What's the *right* way of doing it? :idunno: Weeeellll, Mr. Parker told me.... :ultracool just kidding

Anyway, I was originally taught to use a middle knuckle *uppercut* to the solar plexus. It feels right to me! I have seen other people doing it with the methods described here, but they just didn't flow right - probably because it's different from what I learned and practiced!

Salute,
Jeremiah

 

[jfarnsworth]

I've heard that the strike is to teach you how NOT to use the middle knuckle, so I would run the risk of saying that there is no target. .

I don't know where that came from :idunno: . This is just one more example on how to use a middle knuckle. As some pointed out they are in self defense techniques and give many examples on how many different ways to hit with a middle knuckle.