I'm in law encorcement and I'm looking for a good form that is based on take downs, disarming and grappeling. I've heard great things about American Kempo and I'm interested in learning more. I don't have any martial arts experience. I'm looking for a good location to study in the Charlotte or Monroe area in North Carolina. If anyone has any suggestions as to forms or locations, please let me know.
Looking for advise and intel!
- Thread starter MPD455
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bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
kenpo is a very valuable martial arts form for leos and other folks likely to scrap on a regular basis. you'll hear a lot of talk about whether chinese (tracy) kenpo is superior to american kenpo or vice versa.
really, they're damn near identical. it's like the difference between spanish and portuguese.
also, it bears remembering that your choice of style won't be nearly as important as your choice of training location. a dojo in tae kwon do or aikido (not always considered the best 'street' arts) taught by a passionate and talented instructor will be much better than a kenpo or filipino martial arts (very effective street styles) school run by a poser or burnout.
really, they're damn near identical. it's like the difference between spanish and portuguese.
also, it bears remembering that your choice of style won't be nearly as important as your choice of training location. a dojo in tae kwon do or aikido (not always considered the best 'street' arts) taught by a passionate and talented instructor will be much better than a kenpo or filipino martial arts (very effective street styles) school run by a poser or burnout.
ArmorOfGod
Senior Master
This is very true. I agree completely.
Now, as for kempo, I am a head instructor at a school that teaches a style that comes directly from kempo and I don't know if it would be a good pick for you. Kempo, which I love, tends to get bit too brutal for law enforcement, which relies on restraints and arresting holds.
I would recommend you look for a Japanese/American Jiu-jitsu, maybe akido, or a blended style that incorporates a lot of takedowns and locks. This may be placed under the name "karate" or something generic like that; it is just up to you to watch the class and try it for a few weeks to see if it is what you are looking for.
Good luck and please keep us posted here.
AoG
ArmorOfGod
Senior Master
Moderators: I am suggesting this again (and will keep suggesting it until you tell me to stop).
;-)
We need a sub-forum for law enforcement and security.
AoG
;-)
We need a sub-forum for law enforcement and security.
AoG
MetalStorm
Green Belt
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I am not in either of them but I agree that it would be a nice forum to have added.
Please stop, AoG.
Its appreciated that you brought it up about 6 weeks ago and we appreciate hearing new ideas from all of our members.
For the time being, we do not have such a subforum.
Back on the subject of a particular art....I agree wholeheartedly that the instructor is more important than the art. As far as American Kenpo, it is a very versatile art for hand-to-hand applications. Kenpo does OK with stand-up grappling applications, the large majority of schools do not apply the techniques to the ground. Since the popularity of the UFC has exploded, some Kenpo schools have introduced some groundwork and grappling training as a subset to their program.
kuntawguro
Master Black Belt
I am not sure what is available in NC but if you are using these techniques for in service stuff- why not look at Filipino grappling- dumog, buno, or some of the DeThouars s Silat stuff- it works well with police rules and regs
I'm going to hear it; but, is a striking art the best thing for a police officer to be using on the street?
Sean
Sean
As others have said -- there's not really a perfect art for police work.
I'd suggest that a newbie start with something like Judo for a very simple reason. From almost day 1, you'll be applying the techniques with a partner who will become increasingly non-complaint. So, from almost day 1, you'll be getting stuff that you can apply at work. Also -- our job is to restrain and contain the bad guy, not just KO 'em. Judo is adapted to that purpose quite well. My personal opinion is that a lot of jiujitsu right now ends up too focused on getting into these long, drawn out ground matches that are exactly what we don't want to do... The game changes when he not only can submit you ... but when he can grab your gun while you're in that side mount.
That said -- there's some good reasons to train in striking arts, too. When it's time to hit -- we NEED to know that we can hit someone, and make being hit stick! A good striking art will give you that confidence. And there are plenty of times when you can indeed hit someone on the street with complete justification!
What it really boils down to is that you'll have to look at the schools available in your area. Find one where the instructor seems clued into reality, and not just tournament games. Talk to the instructor; see what experience he or she brings to their teaching, and apply that good ol' Mark I BS detector you got in the academy to their claims. And pick one you think you might enjoy and stick with, and that you don't feel like you're surrounded by s-heads in class.
Beyond that -- remember that your real goal is to go home at the end of the shift; you want something that YOU feel confident will help you do so. Any decent martial art has something to offer...
(And... Be sure to spend some time in "writing-fu." That's going to save your bacon more often than any physical technique! When you use force, you need to be able to say why you did, and why what you did was appropriate!)
I'd suggest that a newbie start with something like Judo for a very simple reason. From almost day 1, you'll be applying the techniques with a partner who will become increasingly non-complaint. So, from almost day 1, you'll be getting stuff that you can apply at work. Also -- our job is to restrain and contain the bad guy, not just KO 'em. Judo is adapted to that purpose quite well. My personal opinion is that a lot of jiujitsu right now ends up too focused on getting into these long, drawn out ground matches that are exactly what we don't want to do... The game changes when he not only can submit you ... but when he can grab your gun while you're in that side mount.
That said -- there's some good reasons to train in striking arts, too. When it's time to hit -- we NEED to know that we can hit someone, and make being hit stick! A good striking art will give you that confidence. And there are plenty of times when you can indeed hit someone on the street with complete justification!
What it really boils down to is that you'll have to look at the schools available in your area. Find one where the instructor seems clued into reality, and not just tournament games. Talk to the instructor; see what experience he or she brings to their teaching, and apply that good ol' Mark I BS detector you got in the academy to their claims. And pick one you think you might enjoy and stick with, and that you don't feel like you're surrounded by s-heads in class.
Beyond that -- remember that your real goal is to go home at the end of the shift; you want something that YOU feel confident will help you do so. Any decent martial art has something to offer...
(And... Be sure to spend some time in "writing-fu." That's going to save your bacon more often than any physical technique! When you use force, you need to be able to say why you did, and why what you did was appropriate!)
kuntawguro
Master Black Belt
Amen Jks
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I was going to suggest this--even though a total outsider--just based on what I've learned from Carol's clips, reading and comparing notes. Kung Fu San Soo would meet all the needs, but doubtful there's a school there.
I also agree that judo is a good choice, with a good chance of finding a school nearby. It's much more powerful than it gets credit for, will give you a good gradation of force options as needed, and won't hurt you with superiors or the courts (doesn't have same rep as most striking arts).
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I'm a total striker by nature, but I hear ya, Bro. :ultracool
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I've gotta disagree with this point.
Most (if not all) LE agencies teach a "defensive-tactics" program that includes the restraint/control/escort techniques (for example: PPCT, CLAMP, etc.). What many LE agencies DO NOT teach (or don't teach enough) is how to fight. That is, how to deal with someone that is not happy that they're being arrested and/or are actively trying to injure or kill the officer. In a situation like that, those nice little restraint techniques (that are designed not to hurt the bad guy so the department won't get sued) are not going to be very useful...at that point, it's time for some brutal fighting skills.
My point is that LEO's typically are provided with their "arrest" training, if they're going to seek training on their own, I tend to recommend something a little more "survival oriented."
just my $0.02
DT training and focus is a simple issue of time.
A typical academy is about 4 to 6 months now. In that time, they have to cover an ever increasing number of topics, testing them in various formats, and transform an ordinary citizen to an officer-in-training (the final transformation to a "cop" comes on the job, under the guidance of the Field Training Instructor & supervisors during a rookie's first year or so...). These topics include the laws, how to do the paperwork, how to respond to various calls for service, driving under all sorts of conditions, firearms, arrest procedures, agency policies, and more.
Defensive Tactics for law enforcement generally aren't about "fighting." They're about protecting yourself and getting the job done. And the job is to, first, GO HOME at the end of the shift, and second, ARREST the suspect. The techniques tend to be simple, direct, and to the point. Because lots of cops won't voluntarily go much further than what they get in DT. Most academies today have actually gotten very agressive in how they teach recruits to respond; I know ours is. The idea is that resistance will be met with force necessary to overcome that resistance IMMEDIATELY but still being proportional.
(I reserve the right to revise & append this later; I'm in a little bit of rush.)
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu would be a good choice, but as with alot of arts, it takes a long time to get really good. There are quite a bit of LEOs, and other goverment folks such as FBI agents and military who train in BBT. Oh I forgot to mention there are also many in BBT who work for private companies that provide Security and Protection services.
I trained in Kenpo for a number of years and still work on techniques to keep it from getting too rusty. It definitely has merit in getting your striking honed, keeping you aware of all of your options, especially in a deadly force situation where you other weapons might not be available. That being said, I am currently training at a school in Winston-Salem with more of a MMA slant. Classes are offered in BJJ, no gi submission wrestling, Muay Thai, takedowns, judo, MMA style fighting. I feel as though the latter is more applicable to my day to work as an LEO. The workouts are several times better, the skills are useful, and the level of training is more realistic to an actual violent encounter. Still, I do not want to take anything away from Kenpo. It might have been my first choice here but I couldn't find a quality school of a similar style to what I had been training. But that's the Triad. Charlotte may have a better range of choices.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Aikido is designed to be as effective as possible while inducing as little harm in your opponent as possible. They do alot knife disarms, stick and wooden sword work you could use. But they don't really do any ground work. Judo does, and with a little thought you could make them flow pretty easy. And there are some styles that include both. Neko Ryu Goshin Jitsu and Cuong Nhu do. If you want any more info on it let me know.
loyalonehk
Orange Belt
Contact Uncle Nick - you will be glad you did... :shooter:
http://www.fightsurvival.com/ from his site you can also get to know more about him and his personality from checking out his blog.
A lot of law enforcement defensive tactics are MA based. They involve balance, holds and take downs. The punches and kicks are good but not recommended on initial contact. If need be you do what you have to do but not to the extreme. There is a lot of footage out there of cops using what appears to be to much force. What ever is done to effect an arrest needs to be done fast. The longer you grapple the worst it looks to the public and the greater the chance of losing one of your available weapons. Such as OC spray, baton, and fire arm, then you have bigger problems. Blood is always bad press so look around for someone who is willing to teach you with all the above in mind.
Town Constable, Justice Court Bailiff and MA
Town Constable, Justice Court Bailiff and MA
